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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2017 15:34:55 GMT -6
In sports the cliche addition by substraction is used a lot. Apparently the Horizon League likes to use a new cliche, subtraction by addition. Southern Indiana joining looks like a dream compared to IUPUI. IUPUI has had just about 20 years in D1 to accomplish...what exactly? What did they do in that time that makes them a worthy member of the HL?This better come with an announcement of their rebranding and addition of varsity baseball, that's the only way to justify this. I did some research on that question gbphoenix1. Over the past 19 years (the time IUPUI has been Division I), THIS is what they have accomplished. Since the '98-'99 season, IUPUI has an overall record of 284-307 (.481 winning percentage, 23 games under) and a Mid-Con/Summit League record of 153-151. Their average conference standing has been 5th Place. Of those 19 years, Ron Hunter was at the helm for 13, compiling an overall record of 221-179 (.553 winning percentage, 42 over) and an overall conference record of 122-86 (36 over). Under his watch, his teams finished on average in 4th pl. They've gone to the Dance once ('02-'03).
IUPUI has had two coaches since: Todd Howard, '11-'12 to '13-'14, going 26-70; and Jason Gardner, '14-'15 to Current. His record is 37-58. Of the 19 IUPUI Division I seasons, they've had 8 winning campaigns, all under Hunter.So I guess it's a matter of "what have you done for me lately". But that apparently only "matters" to us fans and not necessarily the HL Board of Directors. So the only answer I can come up with gb, is the tried and true "Real Estate" answer..."Location", "Location", "Location"! |
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Post by kevinudm on Jun 24, 2017 20:47:01 GMT -6
It's true that IUPUI has a funny name and doesn't have a vaunted basketball pedigree. And they don't sponsor baseball. But they bring a lot to the table and have some major upside: - The geography works. Right in the footprint, keeps us in Indiana, major urban area and a passable travel partner for UIC.
- They are available now, apparently for 2017-18. That means an 18 game conference basketball schedule, and our schools won't have to scramble to fill two additional non-league dates, probably with RPI-killing opponents.
- They sponsor swimming and diving. With Valpo leaving and Wright St. dropping swimming and diving, the HL was down to 5 men's teams (6 women's). Wright is busily fundraising and ultimately may be able to maintain its teams, but it's useful to have another squad. And IUPUI placed second in the Summit for both men's and women's swimming and diving; so at least in the pool, IUPUI is a huge step up from Valpo's dreadful program.
- The move shows that the HL can still raid the Summit. When Moe pokes Larry in the eye, and Larry pokes Curly (or Shemp or Joe or whoever), Curly turns and has no one to poke. You don't want to be Curly. By poaching from the Summit, the HL is demonstrating that it isn't Curly.
- IUPUI has some serious potential. One thing we should learn from the positive experience of the NKU addition is that what matters is where you're going, not where you come from. IUPUI has nearly double the enrollment of the next largest Summit school (they'll be third in the HL, but very similar in size to UWM and UIC) and they have a $700M endowment (UIC currently has the largest endowment in the HL at $265M). So if IUPUI gets serious about athletics, they've got the resources to make a significant upward move.
NKU and Oakland have worked out just fine as HL additions. My guess is that IUPUI will be alright as well. Instead of pointless bitching and moaning, maybe we should welcome them aboard. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 24, 2017 21:10:31 GMT -6
Good points. But let me just do a bit more bitching and moaning...then I'll welcome them aboard!
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Post by gbphoenix1 on Jun 24, 2017 21:44:58 GMT -6
Adding IUPUI to avoid 2 junk games in one year is silly for two reasons. One, it's just one year. Next year you still have to keep IUPUI. Two, they are an rpi killing team with their 200+ rpi every year. I'd rather play different junk teams each year and hope for better in the future than to commit to a junk team forever.
IUPUI has enrollment and money. Two things they've had for awhile. I can't envision them all of a sudden starting to draw interest or spending money when they haven't done either in 19 years. What changed that now that they are going to spend and get fans? With their enrollment their basketball budget should be twice what it is and their attendance four times bigger.
I like pointless bitching better than the pointless addition of IUPUI.
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Post by tommyboy on Jun 24, 2017 21:56:27 GMT -6
No offense to swimming and diving...at WSU it has probably been our most successful program but, may also represent the highest percentage of kids recognized for academic success.
Do we really care about league RPI in anything besides men's basketball?
I wish all of the schools competed in championships in all of the sponsored sports. So, great that IUPUI has swimming and diving and that could be important if WSU can't get funding. If that is the case, I think the HL should make sure it stays ( whereas a baseball team added at IUPUI wouldn't be much help starting from scratch...and it isn't necessary if other teams are added next year ).
Didn't YSU get added because they had volleyball? How has that worked out? Look, I enjoy watching some volleyball and I know some of the names and faces but, I have no idea which teams have won the league over the past several years ( and I can say the same for most other sports ).
LeCrone said what he was looking for and I am disappointed. I have driven by the place IUPUI uses for basketball many times so, that is helpful but, really? IUPUI doesn't do much to help men's basketball.
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Post by kevinudm on Jun 25, 2017 10:49:13 GMT -6
NKU and Oakland have worked out just fine as HL additions. My guess is that IUPUI will be alright as well. Instead of pointless bitching and moaning, maybe we should welcome them aboard.
Pre NKU and Oakland, the HL was ranked between 12-14 as a conference. We are currently ranked 18-19 as a conference. With the addition of IUPUI and the loss of Valpo we will easily drop below 20 in conference rankings. Yep, things are working out just fine.  Last year NKU and Oakland had RPIs of 85 and 102 - they helped the HL. The problem was 200+ RPIs at UIC, Youngstown, UWM, Cleveland St. and Detroit. IUPUI had a better RPI than all five of those schools. The bottom half of the league has lots of room for improvement and that's the starting point for lifting up the league overall. IUPUI is a reasonable stopgap addition that addressed immediate problems. There are still two or four slots available for additional adds. If the HL can improve its current roster, it may become a more attractive option when it tries to fill the remaining slots. |
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Post by commissioner on Jun 25, 2017 10:50:59 GMT -6
Adding IUPUI to avoid 2 junk games in one year is silly for two reasons. One, it's just one year. Next year you still have to keep IUPUI. Two, they are an rpi killing team with their 200+ rpi every year. I'd rather play different junk teams each year and hope for better in the future than to commit to a junk team forever. IUPUI has enrollment and money. Two things they've had for awhile. I can't envision them all of a sudden starting to draw interest or spending money when they haven't done either in 19 years. What changed that now that they are going to spend and get fans? With their enrollment their basketball budget should be twice what it is and their attendance four times bigger. I like pointless bitching better than the pointless addition of IUPUI. To offer a tepid defense, perhaps their decision to join the HL indicates a commitment to spend more; perhaps, even, that was a condition or at least a pledge with admission. It's not uncommon--Loyola agreed to spend a bunch when they moved to the MVC, and I believe Valpo may have made a similar commitment. |
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Post by commissioner on Jun 25, 2017 11:13:58 GMT -6
Pre NKU and Oakland, the HL was ranked between 12-14 as a conference. We are currently ranked 18-19 as a conference. With the addition of IUPUI and the loss of Valpo we will easily drop below 20 in conference rankings. Yep, things are working out just fine. Last year NKU and Oakland had RPIs of 85 and 102 - they helped the HL. The problem was 200+ RPIs at UIC, Youngstown, UWM, Cleveland St. and Detroit. IUPUI had a better RPI than all five of those schools. The bottom half of the league has lots of room for improvement and that's the starting point for lifting up the league overall. IUPUI is a reasonable stopgap addition that addressed immediate problems. There are still two or four slots available for additional adds. If the HL can improve its current roster, it may become a more attractive option when it tries to fill the remaining slots. For the immediate future, the Jags lose their top 3 scorers (which also includes their #2 rebounder and top 2 assist men). They return the other 5 of 8 rotation players. They'll have just 2 seniors on this year's roster, guard Ron Patterson and forward Aaron Brennan, but those are probably their two best players. |
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Post by csudave on Jun 26, 2017 9:57:38 GMT -6
For all of its failings, IUPUI has three things that give it the potential to be competitive with the right leadership: money, good facilities, and fertile recruiting ground. What it lacks is the same thing most of the league (Cleveland State being possibly the worst) does: students who care and a subsequently uninvolved alumni base from which to draw attendance, media attention, and financial support.
It's an uphill battle for them, just as it is for most of the league. Obviously this is the most vanilla choice (possibly behind SIUe), but it's been pointed out that they would've been a middle of the pack team already last year. IUPUI is also the long term choice...NMSU, GCU, and/or Denver would have been immediate impacts, but came with logistical concerns and likely view HL membership as a means to an end as opposed to the end itself. As our programs grow, IUPUI will be facing the same struggles we do, and will see things through a similar lens (unlike Valpo whining about every time we changed something).
Of the other candidates: Fort Wayne is in the middle of a huge reorganization, Omaha is in debt up to its eyeballs, RMU is a hockey-first school, Murray was a pipe dream, and SIUe a complete joke. At the end of the day, the pool was pretty shallow.
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Post by ougrizz05 on Jun 26, 2017 11:37:57 GMT -6
For all of its failings, IUPUI has three things that give it the potential to be competitive with the right leadership: money, good facilities, and fertile recruiting ground. What it lacks is the same thing most of the league (Cleveland State being possibly the worst) does: students who care and a subsequently uninvolved alumni base from which to draw attendance, media attention, and financial support. It's an uphill battle for them, just as it is for most of the league. Obviously this is the most vanilla choice (possibly behind SIUe), but it's been pointed out that they would've been a middle of the pack team already last year. IUPUI is also the long term choice...NMSU, GCU, and/or Denver would have been immediate impacts, but came with logistical concerns and likely view HL membership as a means to an end as opposed to the end itself. As our programs grow, IUPUI will be facing the same struggles we do, and will see things through a similar lens (unlike Valpo whining about every time we changed something). Of the other candidates: Fort Wayne is in the middle of a huge reorganization, Omaha is in debt up to its eyeballs, RMU is a hockey-first school, Murray was a pipe dream, and SIUe a complete joke. At the end of the day, the pool was pretty shallow. Yes the pool was pretty shallow. IUPUI does have potential. But the past 19 years don't speak well to their future. After having a few days to mull it over, I can see that they do have potential. I guess I am warming up to them since it seems to be inevitable at this point. |
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Post by Deleted on Jun 26, 2017 21:15:54 GMT -6
Yes the pool was pretty shallow. IUPUI does have potential. But the past 19 years don't speak well to their future. After having a few days to mull it over, I can see that they do have potential. I guess I am warming up to them since it seems to be inevitable at this point. You know what? I've had time to think about it too. NMSU and GCU probably weren't coming this season and since the pool was shallow, IUPUI was the choice. They've got money, location and students. Hopefully the HL required them to spend money on athletics, including bringing back baseball, as a prerequisite for entry into the league. At least it's not another "Black and Gold-colored" or "Medieval-themed" team joining! |
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Post by HLFanaticus on Jun 26, 2017 21:18:55 GMT -6
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Post by Deleted on Jun 27, 2017 7:11:52 GMT -6
Since they're in the conference, might as well deal with it. So I've be checking out their athletics website and their verbal commits page. The Jaguars have a nice recruiting class coming in for '17-'18. One of their players, Vanderbilt transfer Cameron Justice, will sit out '17-'18. The class however has 2, 3-star players (Justice and Grant Weatherford, with Weatherford having 3 years of eligibility), and in my opinion, their freshman Jaylen Minnett is underrated with a 2-star ranking (should be a three!). Some have already said that IUPUI would've finished in the middle of the pack in the Horizon last season. Let's see what happens next season.
2017-18 IUPUI Signing Class (as of 5/12/2017)
Name Pos. Ht. Cl. Hometown High School Previous School
Brandon Hau F 6-7 Fr. Mukwanago, Wisc. Mukwanago
Camron Justice^G 6-3 Jr. Hindman, Ky. Knott County Central Vanderbilt
Maurice Kirby F 6-9 Sr. Chandler, Ariz. Basha Loyola (Ill.)
Jaylen Minnett G 6-0 Fr. Terre Haute, Ind. Terre Haute South
Grant Weatherford G 6-2 So. Cicero, Ind. Hamilton Heights Midland (Texas) College
^will sit out the 2017-18 season due to NCAA transfer rules
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Post by gbphoenix1 on Jun 27, 2017 7:55:12 GMT -6
With time I can accept or maybe even justify IUPUI joining. I just don't think I should have to. What is the rush to have them join this year? So that basketball doesn't have to find two more games? Seriously what has IUPUI done to rush into adding them? I would highly doubt they will be talking about adding baseball, increasing their spending or changing their brand name to something that fans won't make fun of. Great they are geographic fit and want to join. The league should stay at 9 teams for this year if that is all they can bring.
In most measures I can see where IUPUI would have an advantage over Fort Wayne. There are 3 measures that I don't see an advantage. Fort Wayne is better at men's basketball, which I thought was the calling card of this league. Fort Wayne already did the work to rebrand their program into something that fans can accept. Fort Wayne has baseball, as bad as it might be. There is no reason to not wait a year or two and add Fort Wayne once they get their administration together compared to rushing into adding IUPUI now.
I know it was mentioned that last year IUPUI had better numbers than CSU, YSU, D, M and UIC. Two of those programs had bottomed out and removed coaches after last year. Two of those programs, D & M, have been to the dance since 2012 but were in the first year with new head coaches. UIC is gaining ground after being horrible with Howard Moore. IUPUI is in the third year with their coach, what is their excuse? Those other programs are coming back, is IUPUI ever going to be better than what they are?
I know what is done is done but that doesn't mean I have to accept it, the league didn't have to add them right now or ever. It has been said on this board bringing teams up to HL standards is the job of the ASun. Well I guess that isn't what the leaders of this league think based on dumpster diving to get IUPUI.
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Post by ougrizz05 on Jun 27, 2017 9:05:38 GMT -6
With time I can accept or maybe even justify IUPUI joining. I just don't think I should have to. What is the rush to have them join this year? So that basketball doesn't have to find two more games? Seriously what has IUPUI done to rush into adding them? I would highly doubt they will be talking about adding baseball, increasing their spending or changing their brand name to something that fans won't make fun of. Great they are geographic fit and want to join. The league should stay at 9 teams for this year if that is all they can bring. In most measures I can see where IUPUI would have an advantage over Fort Wayne. There are 3 measures that I don't see an advantage. Fort Wayne is better at men's basketball, which I thought was the calling card of this league. Fort Wayne already did the work to rebrand their program into something that fans can accept. Fort Wayne has baseball, as bad as it might be. There is no reason to not wait a year or two and add Fort Wayne once they get their administration together compared to rushing into adding IUPUI now. I know it was mentioned that last year IUPUI had better numbers than CSU, YSU, D, M and UIC. Two of those programs had bottomed out and removed coaches after last year. Two of those programs, D & M, have been to the dance since 2012 but were in the first year with new head coaches. UIC is gaining ground after being horrible with Howard Moore. IUPUI is in the third year with their coach, what is their excuse? Those other programs are coming back, is IUPUI ever going to be better than what they are? I know what is done is done but that doesn't mean I have to accept it, the league didn't have to add them right now or ever. It has been said on this board bringing teams up to HL standards is the job of the ASun. Well I guess that isn't what the leaders of this league think based on dumpster diving to get IUPUI. True, we didn't have to invite them for 17-18. But I think Fort Wayne will be next year anyway. I also think IUPUI will make some changes to things too. Be it branding, baseball, etc. |
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