Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 27, 2017 19:26:09 GMT -6
The Horizon has not been a top 10 league for at least a half decade, and I'd be surprised if it became one in another half decade. I have accepted that. I would be happy to consistently be top 15. That's part of this League's problem...we have "accepted" trending mediocrity. I haven't accepted that and I am pissed that my school has contributed to the HL's fall. I am on the rebound though as UIC has changed coaches, is recruiting better and is starting to show signs of winning. I believe if each individual program strives for excellence and puts a requirement of winning on its coaches, this conference will once again regain a top 10-12 ranking REGARDLESS as to what additions are made. Internal improvement is imperative! |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 28, 2017 12:31:30 GMT -6
That's part of this League's problem...we have "accepted" trending mediocrity. I haven't accepted that and I am pissed that my school has contributed to the HL's fall. I am on the rebound though as UIC has changed coaches, is recruiting better and is starting to show signs of winning. I believe if each individual program strives for excellence and puts a requirement of winning on its coaches, this conference will once again regain a top 10-12 ranking REGARDLESS as to what additions are made. Internal improvement is imperative! Chuck, you know that the bolded comment isn't true and you cannot really believe it. We can get back to a top 10-12 ranking IF we make the right additions. If we add enough RPI anchors it doesn't matter how good our current members get especially when LeCrone talks about going to 14-16 league members. There are only a handful of teams worth adding in the near future and that is if we go way out of our current boundaries to expand. If we go to 16 teams, we are definitely taking teams that will be anchors and will prohibit us from ever getting back to a 10-12 ranking. If anything it will be the beginning of the end of the HL. Teams will leave the first chance they get vs being in a too large low major conference spread all over the US. It's a stupid idea and LeCrone should be shit canned before he wastes any more of the HL money pursuing it. Yeah, I think the caveat should've been the number of teams we add. I do believe however, if only added 3 to get to 12 and the other nine are strong enough, the 3 additions wouldn't bring the League down to the 18-20 level. But as you say, we go to 14 or 16, then we'd have to bring in apparent anchor teams. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 29, 2017 11:11:33 GMT -6
Oh boy! Too bad, but it's only been a couple years of D1. Maybe they can turn it around financially.
|
|
PantherU.com
Team Operations
I'm always right or wrong
Posts: 53
Team: Milwaukee
|
Post by PantherU.com on May 29, 2017 13:41:44 GMT -6
Oh boy! Too bad, but it's only been a couple years of D1. Maybe they can turn it around financially. Don't forget that they're in this mess because they built Baxter Arena. It's nice to own your own arena, but this isn't UIC Pavilion. For one thing, it's off campus. But the much bigger problem for Omaha is what it does to their bottom line. They were expecting a certain level of income that they haven't achieved. They took out loans to pay for most of it and they can't afford to pay it back. They owe something like $2 million per year toward the repayment of the loan for the construction of the arena. They aren't coming close to recouping the $1 million-plus cost of operating the facility. This is year 2 of their new arena. Long story short: Omaha very well may have buried their Division I program before it really got going. They've got a mountain to climb in getting Baxter Arena just to the point of breaking even. Sent from my SM-G930R4 using proboards |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on May 29, 2017 18:46:13 GMT -6
Oh boy! Too bad, but it's only been a couple years of D1. Maybe they can turn it around financially. Don't forget that they're in this mess because they built Baxter Arena. It's nice to own your own arena, but this isn't UIC Pavilion. For one thing, it's off campus. But the much bigger problem for Omaha is what it does to their bottom line. They were expecting a certain level of income that they haven't achieved. They took out loans to pay for most of it and they can't afford to pay it back. They owe something like $2 million per year toward the repayment of the loan for the construction of the arena. They aren't coming close to recouping the $1 million-plus cost of operating the facility. This is year 2 of their new arena. Long story short: Omaha very well may have buried their Division I program before it really got going. They've got a mountain to climb in getting Baxter Arena just to the point of breaking even. Sent from my SM-G930R4 using proboards Of all the arenas in the HL (including Valpo's until July 1) whenever you mention or talk about an arena, you bring up the Pavilion, and usually in a denigrating way. Don't understand why when it's not the worst one in conference. Also, it is owned by, operated by and located on the campus of UIC. Milwaukee can't say that. And in the not too distant future we will have a brand new Pavilion. So cut UIC some slack when it comes to the Pavilion. |
|
|
|
Post by gbphoenix1 on May 30, 2017 7:58:43 GMT -6
GCU just finished their first four years in D1. They had an RPI of 220, 279, 88 and 124. Yes they spend money and have a cool home court atmosphere but they also had a bunch JUCO and D1 transfers on their teams. My point is only one of those years was terrible and that a USI doesn't have to be a drag for 4 years if they have the right vision and leadership for their program.
|
|
PantherU.com
Team Operations
I'm always right or wrong
Posts: 53
Team: Milwaukee
|
Post by PantherU.com on May 30, 2017 22:28:19 GMT -6
Don't forget that they're in this mess because they built Baxter Arena. It's nice to own your own arena, but this isn't UIC Pavilion. For one thing, it's off campus. But the much bigger problem for Omaha is what it does to their bottom line. They were expecting a certain level of income that they haven't achieved. They took out loans to pay for most of it and they can't afford to pay it back. They owe something like $2 million per year toward the repayment of the loan for the construction of the arena. They aren't coming close to recouping the $1 million-plus cost of operating the facility. This is year 2 of their new arena. Long story short: Omaha very well may have buried their Division I program before it really got going. They've got a mountain to climb in getting Baxter Arena just to the point of breaking even. Sent from my SM-G930R4 using proboards Of all the arenas in the HL (including Valpo's until July 1) whenever you mention or talk about an arena, you bring up the Pavilion, and usually in a denigrating way. Don't understand why when it's not the worst one in conference. Also, it is owned by, operated by and located on the campus of UIC. Milwaukee can't say that. And in the not too distant future we will have a brand new Pavilion. So cut UIC some slack when it comes to the Pavilion. Do you not understand what I'm saying? I'm saying that Omaha's situation is NOT the Pavilion. UIC doesn't have an enormous financial burden on its shoulders - not anywhere near as rough as the situation at Omaha. The Pavilion is fine. It's not new, it's like a lot of our arenas and too big, but it's not crippling the athletic department. The same can't be said for Omaha. Sent from my SM-G930R4 using proboards |
|
PantherU.com
Team Operations
I'm always right or wrong
Posts: 53
Team: Milwaukee
|
Post by PantherU.com on May 30, 2017 22:30:04 GMT -6
What is everyone's infatuation with Southern Indiana? They're a decade behind NKU.
A DECADE.
Let's leave them in our distant future.
|
|
|
|
Post by gbphoenix1 on May 31, 2017 8:50:46 GMT -6
GCU just finished their first four years in D1. They had an RPI of 220, 279, 88 and 124. Yes they spend money and have a cool home court atmosphere but they also had a bunch JUCO and D1 transfers on their teams. My point is only one of those years was terrible and that a USI doesn't have to be a drag for 4 years if they have the right vision and leadership for their program. GCU plays in a great new facility in front of large crowds and most importantly spent more on basketball last year alone than USI spent on almost their entire athletic department combined. GCU spends almost twice as much as most HL teams spend on basketball. YSU could be a contender in the HL every year if they could spend over 4 mil a year on basketball. Your comparison isn't even close to being valid. If you read the article on USI going D1, they stated that they would need to come up with 4 million more a year for their athletic department just to be at the bottom of the HL in spending. Spending more money doesn't guarantee anything, especially when looking at what that money is spent on. Dan Majerle and his staff make about $1,500,000 more than what a HL staff needs to be paid. Majerle in particular doesn't work for cheap, I am sure he is a good coach but a team can get by with just as good of a coach for a lot less money. They spend a lot of money recruiting overseas. I don't know how much they spend on travel because of the WAC but it is a lot more than than what a HL team has to spend. The cost of full time on campus living is more expensive at GCU than it is at most of the public HL schools. Over 13 scholarships that will add up. Just a rough estimate but they spend about $2,000,000 on things USI wouldn't need to have the same level of success. The CGU arena and the USI arena are both going to me nice and new. I can't argue that the crowd at GCU arena isn't a big deal for kids to play for. They have good branding which I think is important to make it exciting. The one thing I can't figure out is where they get that crowd from. From what I have read from Majerle himself is that the local media doesn't cover GCU. I know they have a good student section but the other 4000 or 5000 people are coming from where? If the fan base was passionate they would get media coverage. So I can't tell if they do a UIC and fill it with young kids for free, if they do they do a Phoenix Suns and discount or promo tickets or if they do a minor league move and have concerts and other activities to attract fans. Since they are publicly traded I am sure how they spend every dollar can be found and if they are using creative accounting. Plus we don't know if they include the repayment cost of facilities in that budget. I know this, from their athletic director. "We don't make money on athletics. It's a major loser." Here is the bottom line. Majerle has taken injured kids, transfer kids looking for more playing time, homesick kids and kids from other countries who don't care about the big dance to get his team built. The constant theme from him and the AD is we are going to build something special and these kids can lay the ground work for that. They haven't done anything that USI or any other transitioning team couldn't do. They just have one unified vision and they are working hard to sell that. However, they don't need $4,200,000 to sell a vision that could be had for $2,200,000. |
|
|
|
Post by gbphoenix1 on May 31, 2017 9:08:13 GMT -6
What is everyone's infatuation with Southern Indiana? They're a decade behind NKU. A DECADE. Let's leave them in our distant future. My "infatuation" comes from people not being open minded and using fuzzy math to say they are a decade behind. They shouldn't be the tenth Horizon team. The question for them is should they be on the radar for the 11th or 12th team? If they are on the radar every year prior to the horizon going to 11+ teams doesn't matter as long as they are doing their work to be D1 ready, which they would be. They won't get to D1 without a conference invite meaning they are getting consultation from a conference on what to do. The only period of time that is questionable if they get an invite is what do they do in the first 4 years to not kill the conference. If done correctly they can contribute in years 1 to 4 and then once year 5 rolls around they will be fine. When reading the tea leaves the HL is going to 12 most likely. Is a team in the footprint, that likes hoops, has a history of success, will have a D1 ready building and won't be able to leave for the MVC the worst consideration? With the timing of their building and the league they are currently 7 years behind. Two of which won't matter to the league as the league isn't going to 12 during the next two years. |
|
|
|
Post by commissioner on Jun 1, 2017 11:44:23 GMT -6
If you think the Horizon should try to use expansion to get better, instead of just bigger, than Grand Canyon and New Mexico State are the opportunity you've been waiting for--if they're still interested, for as BigD has noted, the Horizon is less attractive to them now post-Valpo than it was a year ago with Valpo. Still, this is it. Otherwise improvement can only come from within.
|
|
|
|
Post by rabbit74 on Jun 1, 2017 12:35:00 GMT -6
There has been considerable talk on this and other forums about the Horizon League potentially being interested in Fort Wayne, IUPUI, Omaha or Denver. The Summit League Commissioners cup standings for the past year results were just released and give an indication of the strength of the schools in the conference across all sports sponsored by the conference. (It does not include sports like football and wrestling that the conference doesn't sponsor.) Of the 9 schools in the conference, Fort Wayne finished 9th overall and in both the men's side and the women's side. Omaha finished 8th overall, Denver 5th and IUPUI 4th. Even IUPUI finished a long ways behind the three strongest programs in the conference. If the Horizon is looking for schools to raise its level of competition, none of these schools would really fill the bill, or if they did, it would say an awful lot about the relative strength of the Summit and Horizon Leagues. This is just one year data, but it is not significantly different from previous years. Here is a link to the press release. static.psbin.com/g/7/rn7ew5cxn2h2i8/FINAL_Commissioner-s_Cup.pdf |
|
|
|
Post by commissioner on Jun 1, 2017 13:33:19 GMT -6
There has been considerable talk on this and other forums about the Horizon League potentially being interested in Fort Wayne, IUPUI, Omaha or Denver. The Summit League Commissioners cup standings for the past year results were just released and give an indication of the strength of the schools in the conference across all sports sponsored by the conference. (It does not include sports like football and wrestling that the conference doesn't sponsor.) Of the 9 schools in the conference, Fort Wayne finished 9th overall and in both the men's side and the women's side. Omaha finished 8th overall, Denver 5th and IUPUI 4th. Even IUPUI finished a long ways behind the three strongest programs in the conference. If the Horizon is looking for schools to raise its level of competition, none of these schools would really fill the bill, or if they did, it would say an awful lot about the relative strength of the Summit and Horizon Leagues. This is just one year data, but it is not significantly different from previous years. Here is a link to the press release. static.psbin.com/g/7/rn7ew5cxn2h2i8/FINAL_Commissioner-s_Cup.pdfRabbit, here are the athletic priorities for the Horizon: 1. Men's Basketball 2. Men's Basketball 3. Men's Basketball 4. Baseball 5. Men's Basketball 6. Men's Basketball 7. Women's Basketball 8. Men's Basketball 9. Men's Basketball 10. Everything else When we talk about improving the Horizon League, we're talking Men's Basketball. |
|
|
|
Post by gbphoenix1 on Jun 1, 2017 13:40:56 GMT -6
There has been considerable talk on this and other forums about the Horizon League potentially being interested in Fort Wayne, IUPUI, Omaha or Denver. The Summit League Commissioners cup standings for the past year results were just released and give an indication of the strength of the schools in the conference across all sports sponsored by the conference. (It does not include sports like football and wrestling that the conference doesn't sponsor.) Of the 9 schools in the conference, Fort Wayne finished 9th overall and in both the men's side and the women's side. Omaha finished 8th overall, Denver 5th and IUPUI 4th. Even IUPUI finished a long ways behind the three strongest programs in the conference. If the Horizon is looking for schools to raise its level of competition, none of these schools would really fill the bill, or if they did, it would say an awful lot about the relative strength of the Summit and Horizon Leagues. This is just one year data, but it is not significantly different from previous years. Here is a link to the press release. static.psbin.com/g/7/rn7ew5cxn2h2i8/FINAL_Commissioner-s_Cup.pdfThere is one sport driving this decision and that is men's basketball. Fort Wayne doesn't participate in several sports and isn't very good at the rest for an overall ranking. However, from all of the computer modeling that determines basketball strength they rank very favorably with Grand Canyon over the last two years (virtually identical ken pom, split of who had a better RPI and were one of the better Summit ranked teams). Nobody is in love with Fort Wayne as a member but for men's hoops they could do a lot worse for the tenth team. For that matter Robert Morris is generally accepted by fans as a solid program to add yet their numbers don't bare that out and they would on paper make the league weaker than Fort Wayne would. From the outside looking in, I think Robert Morris might need a new coach before they stabilize. They have had a ton of roster turnover along with a lot of losses despite having talented players. I think their coach may have lost his program a bit after doing very well for several years. |
|
|
|
Post by gbphoenix1 on Jun 1, 2017 14:05:32 GMT -6
If you think the Horizon should try to use expansion to get better, instead of just bigger, than Grand Canyon and New Mexico State are the opportunity you've been waiting for--if they're still interested, for as BigD has noted, the Horizon is less attractive to them now post-Valpo than it was a year ago with Valpo. Still, this is it. Otherwise improvement can only come from within. I don't fully agree with you. I agree that GCU and NMSU would improve the league on day one more than almost anything else could. I didn't put pen to paper on this but couldn't the league improve its statistical rankings by adding three teams in the 175ish or better range? If every member of the league dropped their two worst non conference games and then added one decent road and one decent home game to their schedule that should help the league. If you did that across all 9 members that would have to improve the math of the league at least a little bit. Now if you add that to internal improvement from each program I think that is the case LeCrone is making for going to 12 members. Internal growth should become easier as more of the league gets out of the 200's. Last year 50% of the league was 200 or worse. If you added 3 average teams with no improvement from the bottom teams you would be at 42% of the league being at 200 or worse. The bottom team numbers should improve a bit if they have 7 solid members instead of 5 solid members to play home and away. For example if Milwaukee can drop Western Illinois and add Fort Wayne or if UIC can drop Northern Arizona and add Lipscomb (pick any of the prospect list I just didn't want to cherry pick a big name program) that has to help as well. |
|
