PantherU.com
Team Operations
I'm always right or wrong
Posts: 53
Team: Milwaukee
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Post by PantherU.com on May 17, 2017 15:27:14 GMT -6
Big DWSU and Commissioner make pretty great points. There's something else to note about HL baseball: our teams all spend a bunch of time in the south during the first half of the season anyways. If it's really all that big a deal to spend the cash traveling down there, then big deal; just play more games against Chicago State, Fort Wayne etc. Part of me does get the heebie-jeebies over Grand Canyon's reputation as a university, but if other people aren't bothered by it then I suppose I can overlook it. Here's the question I have: do those teams get us better additions otherwise? Won't other schools realize that's a temporary situation? And wouldn't the Murray States of the world, that don't have the money, be scared off by those teams? I mean, a school like Murray State - which might otherwise be willing to make the move - might be freaked out by the travel cost to those schools. Our spending is that high partly because we spent a bunch of cash at the end of the 2015-16 reporting year paying the second coaching staff. I'm sure that is the same for Wright State. In operating expenses, Wright State is the only school in the conference that has men's expenses in excess of $500k. GCU (675k) and NMSU (1.113m) spend a pile more than that just trucking their men's teams around. I guess what I'm saying is, I think there's got to be a whole lot of studying by the conference to figure out what kind of jump in travel expenses we can expect before the administrators with academic backgrounds sign off on such a move to add schools so far away. If it's just about basketball, and we all can afford it, screw it. Hell yeah. Let's get it done. But I worry that YSU's new staff won't be able to get the money they need to boost the program - little stuff like that. If the people who hold the purse strings think it can be done without hamstringing men's basketball at all of our schools, then let's do it.
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Post by gbphoenix1 on May 17, 2017 15:31:23 GMT -6
"If they expand to 14 inviting NMSU, GCU, Robert Morris, Belmont and Murray State, that's a league that now is right behind the A-10."
I would agree with this. I don't know if it is realistic but I do believe it would be the best case scenario for the HL.
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PantherU.com
Team Operations
I'm always right or wrong
Posts: 53
Team: Milwaukee
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Post by PantherU.com on May 17, 2017 16:23:11 GMT -6
"If they expand to 14 inviting NMSU, GCU, Robert Morris, Belmont and Murray State, that's a league that now is right behind the A-10." I would agree with this. I don't know if it is realistic but I do believe it would be the best case scenario for the HL. That might be a little bit of wishful thinking, because most of us aren't yet at the top of our cycle. In a couple years, sure, I could see that. But Robert Morris has been ravaged by transfers like Cleveland State. Belmont and Murray State's biggest reason to turn us down is the jump in travel costs - and that was the same reason Belmont didn't want the MVC visiting their campus. I'm just not so sure those five could be the teams in a 14 scenario.
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Post by ougrizz05 on May 17, 2017 18:30:24 GMT -6
Big DWSU and Commissioner make pretty great points. There's something else to note about HL baseball: our teams all spend a bunch of time in the south during the first half of the season anyways. If it's really all that big a deal to spend the cash traveling down there, then big deal; just play more games against Chicago State, Fort Wayne etc. Part of me does get the heebie-jeebies over Grand Canyon's reputation as a university, but if other people aren't bothered by it then I suppose I can overlook it. Here's the question I have: do those teams get us better additions otherwise? Won't other schools realize that's a temporary situation? And wouldn't the Murray States of the world, that don't have the money, be scared off by those teams? I mean, a school like Murray State - which might otherwise be willing to make the move - might be freaked out by the travel cost to those schools. Our spending is that high partly because we spent a bunch of cash at the end of the 2015-16 reporting year paying the second coaching staff. I'm sure that is the same for Wright State. In operating expenses, Wright State is the only school in the conference that has men's expenses in excess of $500k. GCU (675k) and NMSU (1.113m) spend a pile more than that just trucking their men's teams around. I guess what I'm saying is, I think there's got to be a whole lot of studying by the conference to figure out what kind of jump in travel expenses we can expect before the administrators with academic backgrounds sign off on such a move to add schools so far away. If it's just about basketball, and we all can afford it, screw it. Hell yeah. Let's get it done. But I worry that YSU's new staff won't be able to get the money they need to boost the program - little stuff like that. If the people who hold the purse strings think it can be done without hamstringing men's basketball at all of our schools, then let's do it. I'm not on board with GCU's for profit status at all. That's a non negotiable for me. I'd rather live with 9.
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Post by gbphoenix1 on May 18, 2017 10:22:24 GMT -6
"If they expand to 14 inviting NMSU, GCU, Robert Morris, Belmont and Murray State, that's a league that now is right behind the A-10." I would agree with this. I don't know if it is realistic but I do believe it would be the best case scenario for the HL. That might be a little bit of wishful thinking, because most of us aren't yet at the top of our cycle. In a couple years, sure, I could see that. But Robert Morris has been ravaged by transfers like Cleveland State. Belmont and Murray State's biggest reason to turn us down is the jump in travel costs - and that was the same reason Belmont didn't want the MVC visiting their campus. I'm just not so sure those five could be the teams in a 14 scenario. I don't think those 5 will all join either. However, of the names being thrown around that has to be the strongest grouping. If somehow they all did join that has to move the HL ahead of the Summit, MAC, CAA, Sunbelt, MVC and Southern for sure. Hey I have already accepted it will be FW, Lipscomb and Southern Indiana. For me I have little room to be disappointed and lots of room to be excited if it is better than that!
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PantherU.com
Team Operations
I'm always right or wrong
Posts: 53
Team: Milwaukee
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Post by PantherU.com on May 19, 2017 14:53:44 GMT -6
That might be a little bit of wishful thinking, because most of us aren't yet at the top of our cycle. In a couple years, sure, I could see that. But Robert Morris has been ravaged by transfers like Cleveland State. Belmont and Murray State's biggest reason to turn us down is the jump in travel costs - and that was the same reason Belmont didn't want the MVC visiting their campus. I'm just not so sure those five could be the teams in a 14 scenario. I don't think those 5 will all join either. However, of the names being thrown around that has to be the strongest grouping. If somehow they all did join that has to move the HL ahead of the Summit, MAC, CAA, Sunbelt, MVC and Southern for sure. Hey I have already accepted it will be FW, Lipscomb and Southern Indiana. For me I have little room to be disappointed and lots of room to be excited if it is better than that! I don't believe the HL will do that, especially this off-season. For one, Southern Indiana isn't Division I yet. We all expect them to make that move, but they haven't even announced such a move yet. NKU didn't announce the move until after their arena was finished. If USI follows a similar timeline, it could be 8 years before they get into the HL. Fort Wayne may be ready to get in, but even the cynical fans can admit that the Horizon League won't add a school in such a precarious position this off-season. We know what the IU-PU split did for the name and the classes; but what will it do to the Mastodons' finances? Their MBB expenses in 2015-16 were third from the bottom in my comparison of the 24 schools (9 HL, 15 prospects) - only South Dakota and Chicago State spent less in hoops than the Mastodons. As for Lipscomb, I can see them coming but I still worry about adding them and then losing more members that could be some of their closer geographical members. I also worry about adding them and seeing no benefits for years, but this is why you brought them up so obviously we agree there.
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Post by csudave on May 19, 2017 16:43:57 GMT -6
I know that this won't ingratiate me to many on this board, but I've just about talked myself into IUPUI as our best bet. Their track record both on the court and in the stands leaves a lot to be desired (but those in glass houses shouldn't throw stones), but are they any more of a gamble than NKU was?
The fairgrounds arena is a gorgeous facility. Moving to the HL should improve recruiting and free up travel money for other uses. The school is in a more stable position than Fort Wayne.
NKU had the advantage of being a mostly unknown quantity, whereas IUPUI has baggage to overcome. But from the perspective of potential they might be our best shot without doing something truly insane like adding NMSU.
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Post by gbphoenix1 on May 20, 2017 13:35:30 GMT -6
I don't think those 5 will all join either. However, of the names being thrown around that has to be the strongest grouping. If somehow they all did join that has to move the HL ahead of the Summit, MAC, CAA, Sunbelt, MVC and Southern for sure. Hey I have already accepted it will be FW, Lipscomb and Southern Indiana. For me I have little room to be disappointed and lots of room to be excited if it is better than that! I don't believe the HL will do that, especially this off-season. For one, Southern Indiana isn't Division I yet. We all expect them to make that move, but they haven't even announced such a move yet. NKU didn't announce the move until after their arena was finished. If USI follows a similar timeline, it could be 8 years before they get into the HL. Fort Wayne may be ready to get in, but even the cynical fans can admit that the Horizon League won't add a school in such a precarious position this off-season. We know what the IU-PU split did for the name and the classes; but what will it do to the Mastodons' finances? Their MBB expenses in 2015-16 were third from the bottom in my comparison of the 24 schools (9 HL, 15 prospects) - only South Dakota and Chicago State spent less in hoops than the Mastodons. As for Lipscomb, I can see them coming but I still worry about adding them and then losing more members that could be some of their closer geographical members. I also worry about adding them and seeing no benefits for years, but this is why you brought them up so obviously we agree there. With the league likely staying at 9 for 2017-18 I see that as a move to giving a current prospect enough time to give notice and/or sort any financial implications of a move. For FW waiting a year is a probably a better scenario. I only see Lipscomb being invited if another program in that area is willing to make the move (Evansville, Southern Indiana, Belmont or Murray State). Lipscomb is a piece the HL could invite at anytime so need to rush until the league has a solid southern expansion plan. I know Southern Indiana hasn't made their intentions known. If they do move to D1 I think the HL would jump on it right away. There are very few HL fans that would look at NKU, NDSU, SDSU or USD and think they aren't solid mid majors. I think the HL would settle for grabbing USI right away knowing that the end game is worth waiting for. So many of the transition teams in the 2000's were left without good homes and had to make their way down a long and lonely road. Giving a USI type program a home right away gives them a better chance to be a relevant and contributing member of the league sooner which we all agree this league needs more members like that. As I said, I have just talked myself into this being a path so when Belmont, Murray State etc. don't move I won't be disappointed!
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PantherU.com
Team Operations
I'm always right or wrong
Posts: 53
Team: Milwaukee
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Post by PantherU.com on May 20, 2017 21:06:02 GMT -6
If the HL invites a team that isn't currently D1 (Southern Indiana), I think you will immediately see 2-3 teams leave the conference. It's embarrassing to the conference that some of you keep bringing them up like they are even in the running. 100% this. In 2027 USI very well may be a good add. Let's get back to 2017 for now. Sent from my SM-G930R4 using proboards
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Post by Deleted on May 21, 2017 1:10:20 GMT -6
If the HL invites a team that isn't currently D1 (Southern Indiana), I think you will immediately see 2-3 teams leave the conference. It's embarrassing to the conference that some of you keep bringing them up like they are even in the running. Come on Big DWSU. I think you're over reacting just a bit. First of all, just like any individual, company or entity, we fans are just coming up with as many feasible and reasonable options as possible. If that includes a D2 program or two down the road, then so be it. What's wrong with identifying potential D2 programs that could be good D1 programs in short order? I remember a couple of posters who shall remain nameless, were quite leery of adding NKU when they were added. One said to wait on bringing them in because they would do nothing but anchor the League with its potentially horrendous RPI. That was only for 1 year. Another poster said that NKU was "butt". Needless to say, NKU turned out to be a better team than the respective schools of both those posters. I know it was only one season, but the numbers were there. We don't know how programs will turn out. If the League had waited on NKU, maybe they stay in the A-Sun or the OVC reconsiders and invites them. Secondly, what 2 or 3 teams would leave the conference? Detroit? Don't think so. They've done nothing to make themselves appealing, although some of its fans think they're entitled. Milwaukee? Make no mistake, the Panthers were not and will not be going to another conference. What the MVC was doing was a farce with smoke and mirrors. UWM has finally settled on a rental arena; they have a non D1 baseball complex with no set up for even ESPN3; no men's golf or tennis; no softball and turmoil within the athletic department. Wright State? With the budget problems being had there, realigning with another conference would be years down the road when there is better financial footing, if at all. Wouldn't be wise right now because WSU would have to negotiate exit and entrance fees. Youngstown State? Sure they could maybe work out something with the MAC or another Eastern-based conference...but who would care? They're football first anyway! The other teams aren't going anywhere either. One reason is there really is no place that any of us can go. The Summit? OVC? A-10? The MVC is not expanding again anytime soon. Regardless of all this expansion talk, the only real answer to a better Horizon League is internal improvement from all 9 programs. Nothing less than a commitment to academic and athletic excellence will do.
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Post by gbphoenix1 on May 21, 2017 14:55:04 GMT -6
There are about 200 teams that don't play FBS football or are totally out of the HL's level (Big East, Gonzaga). When you take out the A10, MVC, Ivy, WCC, Big West, MEAC and SWAC there are about 140 teams left to choose from. When you start to get realistic about who is additive or near the footprint you could stretch and say there are about 26 D1 possibilities. I have the 15 from PantherU's expense list plus Belmont, Chattanooga, EKU, North Dakota, St. Francis PA, Canisius, Niagara, Little Rock, Arlington, NJIT and SIUE.
Here is my point. The pool isn't all that big. Then consider who is really in play and I would submit the number of programs to consider is way less than 26. The HL probably wants to add one baseball playing (likely), solid men's hoops team that is a geographic fit within the next year. Then keep working on MSU and Belmont to get to 12 members. If they don't join, then they could add USI if they make a move to D1. They could add them along with another team in that area like Lipscomb and be set. I am not thinking the HL would invite USI NOW but I would be very confident that the HL is very well versed in what USI is doing and wouldn't wait 8 or 10 years to grab them if they made a move and the league wasn't at 12 already. With the small pool of candidates of course it is relevant to keep tabs of a team right in the backyard. Especially since the best targets seem to be reluctant to join right now. Expansion to 12 doesn't have to happen all at once.
Does not adding a team this off season indicate they are waiting on an ideal fit from their best target or are they moving on and waiting for the backups to get their affairs in order?
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Post by rabbit74 on May 21, 2017 15:39:23 GMT -6
For full disclosure, SDSU/Summit League fan here.
Just a reminder that for a team to move from DII to DI, they must have a membership invitation from an existing DI conference. So USI can't make the move in isolation. Perhaps the Atlantic Sun is willing to accept them knowing they may only stay for a few years like they did with NKU but since they are currently relatively safe with 9 teams they might not be interested in a short time visit.So the only way to have SIU a few years down the road may be to take them now.
As for the Summit League, a few years ago, a move from the Summit to the Horizon would have been a big jump up. In fact I was hoping for that to happen. But today, such a move would be a step downward in terms of strength of competition. Perhaps the Indiana schools would consider it due to geography and associated travel costs but I am sure none of the Dakotas would consider moving and doubt that the WIU (football), Denver (would rather look west if interested in moving), ORU or Omaha would be interested.
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Post by gbphoenix1 on May 22, 2017 8:22:36 GMT -6
Having to be affiliated with a conference right away is a good thing for transitioning teams. I don't know for sure how it worked in the past but I thought Fort Wayne and South Dakota were independent and some of the Dakota's were in the Great West or United Basketball which seemed more like a scheduling alliance than a conference. Those schools would be much further along than they already are if they had a good home from the start.
Again I am not saying that the HL will invite USI now. I am simply suggesting that if USI is going to move to D1 that they are not making their plans independently. Rather they are doing so in consultation with prospective leagues like the ASun, OVC, Summit and Horizon. The Horizon can try to make their other moves (Belmont/Murray State/NMSU/GCU/RMU) and if it doesn't pan out they can look to add a USI when they are ready to make a move. I think they are relevant to the conversation.
As for the Summit being stronger than the Horizon. I am not sure about that going forward. Perhaps last year on paper they might have been slightly better. Most of that comes from the bottom not being as bad because the top doesn't seem as strong. In the 9 member Summit there were 2 first year coaches, 5 third year coaches and ORU and Omaha with long standing coaches. For whatever reason ORU bottomed out last year after being strong for the first 16 years of Sutton's time. Seems like he was being pushed out.
Anyway, in the Horizon last year there were 4 first year coaches, 3 second year coaches, Kampe and two train wrecks at CSU and YSU. Now that CSU and YSU have been cleaned up and the other 7 new guys have more time in their chairs I think you will see the HL strengthen the bottom members and even with the loss of Valpo start to put a gap to leagues that are similarly ranked.
From where I sit NDSU, SDSU and FW where on solid footing when their coaches took over. Denver wasn't bad. IUPUI and W. ILL either have the wrong guy or are just tough gigs. Compared to Milwaukee, UIC, Detroit, CSU and YSU being in bad shape and NKU not even being a full D1 member when the new guys took over. One league looks like it has a better chance for a snap back than the other. I could entertain an organic growth opportunity discussion being more equal over the long term but that is hard to measure.
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Post by rabbit74 on May 22, 2017 12:32:24 GMT -6
You are correct. When SDSU and NDSU moved to DI 13 years ago, they did so without a conference invite. IPFW moved about the same time under the same rules. Eight years ago a temporary ban on transitioned was put in place. USD and UND were two of the last schools to transition before the ban. The ban was lifted, I believe, four years ago but a new rule was added that you have to have a conference membership in place in order to transition from DII to DI. Northern Kentucky was one of the first to transition under the new rules.
As to whether the Summit or the Horizon is the stronger conference, you can reach either conclusion depending upon whether you look at long term tradition or current trajectory. Prior to the 15-16 season, the Horizon had a higher rating in the national rankings like Sagarin;s. However, for the last two years, the Summit has had the higher ranking. Add to that the loss of Valpo and it appears likely that the Summit will have a higher rating for the coming year. Last year, the Summit did not have a dominate team. SDSU got off to a horrible start but turned it around about half way through the conference season and went on to the big dance. But their start held there rankings down and therefore hurt the league as well. But the Summit had a strong cohort of teams that ranked in the 100's in national rankings. Only time will tell whether the Horizon's downward trajectory of the last few years and the Summit's upward trajectory will both continue or both be reversed or one of each. According to Sagarin"s Rankings, the Summit was the 14th strongest conference last year and the Horizon the 19th, counting Valpo.
Following are the individual team rankings out of 353 excluding Valpo.
Horizon Summit
99 136 146 150 161 160 178 173 234 180 244 190 260 202 287 235 291 299
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Post by ougrizz05 on May 22, 2017 14:03:06 GMT -6
So the top of the Horizon is\was better than the Summit last year. But the middle & bottom was owned by the Summit. I think one thing that can't be ignored is the coaching transitions that all of the Horizon programs excluding Oakland have faced. In our 4 years in the conference, every Horizon school except us has had a head coaching change.
An obvious advantage for the Summit is the fact that all of the Dakota schools are flagship schools of those states. Their resources are more extensive than most of the Horizon schools.
I do see this as a temporary dowward trend for the Horizon. Of course with Valpo saying goodbye there is is some uncertainty with who will replace them.
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