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Post by HLFanaticus on Mar 25, 2014 21:30:00 GMT -6
Belmont lost to Clemson on Tuesday night 73-68 in Clemson, SC, in the NIT. Now all of the teams that HL fans have mentioned as potential members are done. The NCAA is moving to its second weekend. There have already been some coaching changes. The HL doesn't have to wait for the Big East this season and the GOR's for the P5 conferences have pretty much made expansion moot for them. So the HL, along with possibly the MVC, is in position to make an expeditious preemptive move toward expansion.
So now the question is will an announcement be forthcoming soon concerning Horizon League Expansion?
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Post by HLFanaticus on Mar 25, 2014 21:59:08 GMT -6
My mistake. I spoke too soon. Murray State is still playing. They are still alive in the Collegeinsider.com Tournament (CIT). Maybe the Horizon League waits until Murray is done playing.
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Post by kevinudm on Mar 26, 2014 15:25:25 GMT -6
When Butler left the HL, their decision became public on May 2, 2012. It seems to be more typical that these decisions come at the end of the academic year, rather than the conclusion of the basketball season. So we probably need to wait another month.
I'll be surprised (pleasantly surprised) if the Horizon League acts in the short term. NKU is not ready yet. Belmont would need to come with a partner (Murray St., Evansville or Lipscomb) and it doesn't seem like either Belmont or the plus one is imminent. IPFW had a surprisingly good season, but there is little enthusiasm to add them alone or with IUPUI.
Regarding Evansville, it's helpful that the MVC only won one tournament game this year, so they didn't grow their pot of tournament money to be distributed to conference members. Regardless, if Evansville were to jump to the HL, they would pay an MVC departure fee, an HL joining fee, and then forego the existing MVC tourney pot. I doubt they could afford the make the move, even if they wanted to.
I'm still guessing that the Summit League will act before the HL does. The Summit is generally less concerned with geographic fit and academic caliber, so they have more options to choose from.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 26, 2014 16:00:25 GMT -6
When Butler left the HL, their decision became public on May 2, 2012. It seems to be more typical that these decisions come at the end of the academic year, rather than the conclusion of the basketball season. So we probably need to wait another month. I'll be surprised (pleasantly surprised) if the Horizon League acts in the short term. NKU is not ready yet. Belmont would need to come with a partner (Murray St., Evansville or Lipscomb) and it doesn't seem like either Belmont or the plus one is imminent. IPFW had a surprisingly good season, but there is little enthusiasm to add them alone or with IUPUI. Regarding Evansville, it's helpful that the MVC only won one tournament game this year, so they didn't grow their pot of tournament money to be distributed to conference members. Regardless, if Evansville were to jump to the HL, they would pay an MVC departure fee, an HL joining fee, and then forego the existing MVC tourney pot. I doubt they could afford the make the move, even if they wanted to. I'm still guessing that the Summit League will act before the HL does. The Summit is generally less concerned with geographic fit and academic caliber, so they have more options to choose from. The Summit League intrigues me. They improved in rpi up to 16 this season with NDSU and Fort Worth moving up a notch and of course Denver being added. Oral Roberts is coming back next season. They could be quite aggressive and extend invitations (they could invite NKU for all we know). While the HL sits back the SL and Valley could be proactive.
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Post by ougrizz05 on Mar 27, 2014 13:21:17 GMT -6
When Butler left the HL, their decision became public on May 2, 2012. It seems to be more typical that these decisions come at the end of the academic year, rather than the conclusion of the basketball season. So we probably need to wait another month. I'll be surprised (pleasantly surprised) if the Horizon League acts in the short term. NKU is not ready yet. Belmont would need to come with a partner (Murray St., Evansville or Lipscomb) and it doesn't seem like either Belmont or the plus one is imminent. IPFW had a surprisingly good season, but there is little enthusiasm to add them alone or with IUPUI. Regarding Evansville, it's helpful that the MVC only won one tournament game this year, so they didn't grow their pot of tournament money to be distributed to conference members. Regardless, if Evansville were to jump to the HL, they would pay an MVC departure fee, an HL joining fee, and then forego the existing MVC tourney pot. I doubt they could afford the make the move, even if they wanted to. I'm still guessing that the Summit League will act before the HL does. The Summit is generally less concerned with geographic fit and academic caliber, so they have more options to choose from. The Summit League intrigues me. They improved in rpi up to 16 this season with NDSU and Fort Worth moving up a notch and of course Denver being added. Oral Roberts is coming back next season. They could be quite aggressive and extend invitations (they could invite NKU for all we know). While the HL sits back the SL and Valley could be proactive. The summit league is more concerned with geography than it was in the past. They want to stay in the central us/midwest area. Also its fort Wayne, not Fort worth. They offered NKU when they initially went to D1. I don't see them as being ready for the HL, nor do i see Belmont moving to the HL, its just too far.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2014 14:08:00 GMT -6
Whenever I start typing "Fort" it usually ends up "Worth". I usually spell check it, but this time I overlooked it. If Belmont could be convinced or themselves believe, that being in the HL would guarantee a better chance of making the Dance because of multiple bids, then I think they make the move. If and it's a huge IF, the HL somehow brings in Belmont, Murray and either Evansville or Lipscomb, then you'd have to divide the HL into divisions and then the southern and northern divisions would only have to make the long treks just every other year.
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Post by gbphoenix1 on Mar 28, 2014 17:09:59 GMT -6
I dislike the idea of divisions to keep down travel costs, at least in men's hoops. I can understand it for non revenue and Olympic sports but not for flagship sports. The point of expansion and bringing in teams like Belmont is to add to the RPI and reputation of the league. To bring in teams and then flinch over the cost of flying to play them is pointless to me. If teams can't afford a few flights to add to the league value then we should accept our lot in life as mid major and be done with it. I doubt teams in the New Big East, Atlantic 10 or Mountain West think like that and all of those leagues are where the HL is trying to get to. The HL and it's members need to show they are committed financially to hoops, otherwise all of this talk is just talk.
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Post by gbphoenix1 on Mar 28, 2014 22:42:43 GMT -6
If people want to think small then they will achieve small results. The overall athletic budget numbers are a pointless reference. All that matters for this conversation is should HL teams be able to afford one or two more flights per year for basketball, that is the sport we are trying to compete in. We aren't talking about adding extra games so budgets for hotel rooms and food should not be impacted. For some of the teams they can bus south the same as any other regional road game. Flying men's and women's hoops maybe two extra times per year should cost somewhere between 50,000 and 100,000 per year per school. If any of the member schools are sweating over 100,000 that is terrible.
To my point before members of those other leagues wouldn't sweat that. They would find a way to make it happen. If Mary Ellen Gillespie can't raise a 100,000 for that she should be fired from GB. Why is it that Marquette, Xavier, Butler, St. Louis and Dayton play big time hoops and Evansville, Loyola and Detroit don't? Twenty five years ago they were all on equal footing in the MCC. The schools that didn't flinch over money have eventually separated themselves from the pack over the schools that did flinch.
Divisions make less sense for the schedule in a 12 team league when the divisions likely won't have 6 teams of equal measure. That would be 10 games in a round robin format and then 6 games in a home or away vs. the other division. There is no way the league is going to 12 teams to only play 16 games. For sure they go to 18, possibly go to 20 like the MAAC or Big Sky and maybe they could be daring and just play 22 games and really eliminate the issue of non con scheduling. In that scenario each team only needs to come up with 9 good non con games. The expanded league would need to schedule on a yearly basis regardless of divisions to make sure the best perceived teams are playing more times in a 18 game schedule. That is what would build the RPI. The old Big East didn't have divisions and was a monster conference. I don't think the ACC has divisions and is considered by many to be top notch. They can do divisions for soccer, volleyball, softball or baseball but there is no point in men's hoops. Going to divisions to lower travel costs in men's hoops only makes it harder to make sure the best teams are playing as many times as possible.
I can't write it enough. If they expand the league it is not the time to be stubborn, cheap, stuck in the past or coming up with excuses. It is the time to think big collectively and make sure that a smallish amount of money isn't keeping the best teams from playing more often in the flagship sport. The best teams playing is what creates a product worthy of being paid to be on tv, creates alumni donation interest, sells advertising/tickets/concessions/team merchandise and in the long term helps the HL close the financial gap for other sports.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2014 23:59:51 GMT -6
Divisions make less sense for the schedule in a 12 team league when the divisions likely won't have 6 teams of equal measure. That would be 10 games in a round robin format and then 6 games in a home or away vs. the other division. There is no way the league is going to 12 teams to only play 16 games. For sure they go to 18, possibly go to 20 like the MAAC or Big Sky and maybe they could be daring and just play 22 games and really eliminate the issue of non con scheduling. In that scenario each team only needs to come up with 9 good non con games. The expanded league would need to schedule on a yearly basis regardless of divisions to make sure the best perceived teams are playing more times in a 18 game schedule. That is what would build the RPI. The old Big East didn't have divisions and was a monster conference. I don't think the ACC has divisions and is considered by many to be top notch. They can do divisions for soccer, volleyball, softball or baseball but there is no point in men's hoops. Going to divisions to lower travel costs in men's hoops only makes it harder to make sure the best teams are playing as many times as possible. gbphoenix1, I see where you're coming from and maybe in time, the HL will get there. Right now, I tend to agree with Big DWSU. This League needs to take it one step at at time. First our scheduling has to improve. I just read an article where Coach Gary Waters said Cleveland State will beef up its non-con schedule. Secondly, the teams in this league have to WIN most of their non-con games. Winning with a high rpi and SOS will cure all ills when it comes to multiple bids. The HL has to work itself there. UIC has a nice endowment, we get some games on Comcast Chicago and we are even on the radio. But guess what, in this market with the Bulls, Bears, Blackhawks and White Sox, we don't get the nice big radio deal. The Flames pay for the radio time! UIC then sells spots for the basketball broadcasts during that time. If this expansion things goes like most of us hope, we can get multiple bids and hopefully win some games in the Dance. Then we'll start seeing the money coming in. Then, with national TV exposure and winning, higher level recruits will come. Our programs will get better; more tourney at-larges; more tourney shares; now we can build better facilities; the league can allot more money for recruiting, etc., etc., etc. Then maybe, if the HL chooses to, it can do away with divisions and play a full round robin schedule...and it can be 22 games. If the teams are good enough because of the better scheduling, and only 8-10 good non-con games, the competition within the league should be enough to keep the HL flying high. But that will take time gbphoenix1...and winning!
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Post by gbphoenix1 on Mar 29, 2014 15:18:11 GMT -6
Saying those other teams are in better conferences which is why they can spend more is the equivalent of defining a word with the word itself. The question isn't why they can spend more, the question should be what did they do differently to elevate their programs to other conferences with money that other schools didn't do? Based on the response I read it would seem a subtle admission that Dayton is just a bigger and better school that in fact should look down its nose at WSU. If that isn't the case then how does WSU implement some of what Dayton does? How does Milwaukee copy some of what Marquette does?
If the league should charge for the HLN to create revenue then why aren't member schools trying to charge seat licenses or ramp up donations to get better seats? In GB I paid $296 for 2 seats to 8 games. My seats are 6 rows off the floor near center court. I hear HL members talk about value for the dollar. I live in Milwaukee and have never once heard or read anyone from Marquette talking about value and affordability. So many of the schools are concerned about protecting the little nut that they have but truth be told you could implement some fee and maybe you lose people. If total cost doubled and sales dropped by 50% the program is still even. I am confident there is a number where net revenue could still increase even with fewer people. Many HL schools must not think their product is good or they are afraid to ask because they give it away. If it is good people won't be afraid to pay for it.
Speaking of the HLN I am actually curious how many people view on the site. I really don't know. What I do know is that most broadcasts have very few commercials. Is that because they aren't trying to advertise on there or is it because there is not enough viewers that anyone will pay to advertise on there? Is it left to the school level or could the league actually get some national accounts on there and drive revenue?
Back on task, there are only 7 league sponsored sports that play a standings style competition (m/w hoops, m/w soccer, volleyball, softball and baseball. The rest play whoever/wherever and then have a conference championship meet). Only hoops and baseball play round robin with the rest playing home or away but not both. League play accounts for 1/3 to 2/3 of the schedule. I have been down this road before and few if any of those teams are traveling same day to games. So adding teams doesn't change the food and lodging cost by much. It is changing the transportation cost. In baseball or softball I would suggest it doesn't change much because due to weather it is going from non conference games in California, Florida, Alabama, North Carolina etc. to conference games in Tennessee. In volleyball and soccer it is probably adding one flight every other year. If flying a team commercial is an average of $25,000 I would say the total additive cost for each program isn't more than $150,000 per year. Teams are already traveling and paying for it, we need to find the additive cost of switching out non conference games for conference games that are further south. This is also assuming that in the non revenue sports the teams play each other without some sort of cost reduction measure (divisions) in place. For example would anyone really care if GB women's soccer ever played Belmont or vice versa?
I appreciate the discussion. I just believe this expansion isn't as expensive as some think and I think this product is more valuable than some treat it. As such nothing good will happen until people believe it can happen. Instead of saying we are not comprised of large endowment schools (which most of that money is for education anyway) with big boosters; each fan, AD and league official should come to terms with what I think is an undeniable truth. This is a business and there has to be risk. The risk of spending a small amount of money on items like travel to try and make money that can then be spent on building the members and the brand.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 29, 2014 21:15:13 GMT -6
The question isn't why they can spend more, the question should be what did they do differently to elevate their programs to other conferences with money that other schools didn't do? Based on the response I read it would seem a subtle admission that Dayton is just a bigger and better school that in fact should look down its nose at WSU. With a lot of those schools, it was timing...and prejudice. A lot of those schools left because they didn't want to be a part of a league that was moving drastically from all private to a hybrid public/private. St. Louis, Dayton, Xavier La Salle all happened to move to the A-10. With the exception of St. Louis (which thinks it's an eastern school) and not counting Evansville, all the privates were eastern based. The A-10 was actually a better fit. They then began to win. Unlike the schools in the HL, those schools capitalized on their success. When Xavier blew up, they knew they were going to have to replace a coach. They took their time and got the best coach for that period of time until he was snatched up. In the HL, the only team that really did that was Milwaukee with Bo Ryan and then Bruce Pearl. They seemed to have missed the boat on Rob Jeter. The HL seemed to have come to grips with the idea of hiring and paying quality coaches. I think the league has some pretty good coaches (maybe except Jerry Slocum; the jury is still out on Howard Moore). Speaking of the HLN I am actually curious how many people view on the site. I really don't know. What I do know is that most broadcasts have very few commercials. Is that because they aren't trying to advertise on there or is it because there is not enough viewers that anyone will pay to advertise on there? Is it left to the school level or could the league actually get some national accounts on there and drive revenue? The HL broadcasts are produced by the local institutions and they are responsible for advertising. I've been doing a lot of HLN basketball watching over the past season and Oakland seems to take those broadcasts very seriously. I'm sure some of it has to do with their excitement of being in the HL. They have local commercials, in addition to those Horizon League promos. They also have the clearest and most mistake free broadcasts. UIC has the worst. I remember Commissioner LeCrone alluding to the fact that the League wants to get the product out to as many homes as possible. It wasn't a matter of charging for it. You can imagine though, if this league ever takes off and becomes a top 7-10 league with multiple bids in the NCAA and NIT, that thinking just might change. Back on task, there are only 7 league sponsored sports that play a standings style competition (m/w hoops, m/w soccer, volleyball, softball and baseball. The rest play whoever/wherever and then have a conference championship meet). Only hoops and baseball play round robin with the rest playing home or away but not both. League play accounts for 1/3 to 2/3 of the schedule. I have been down this road before and few if any of those teams are traveling same day to games. So adding teams doesn't change the food and lodging cost by much. It is changing the transportation cost. In baseball or softball I would suggest it doesn't change much because due to weather it is going from non conference games in California, Florida, Alabama, North Carolina etc. to conference games in Tennessee. In volleyball and soccer it is probably adding one flight every other year. If flying a team commercial is an average of $25,000 I would say the total additive cost for each program isn't more than $150,000 per year. Teams are already traveling and paying for it, we need to find the additive cost of switching out non conference games for conference games that are further south. This is also assuming that in the non revenue sports the teams play each other without some sort of cost reduction measure (divisions) in place. For example would anyone really care if GB women's soccer ever played Belmont or vice versa? I'm not good with numbers and all that. I leave that up to the commissioner, kevinudm and Big DWSU, but I do understand your rationale about replacing the Cali trip with a Nashville trip. I appreciate the discussion. I just believe this expansion isn't as expensive as some think and I think this product is more valuable than some treat it. As such nothing good will happen until people believe it can happen. Instead of saying we are not comprised of large endowment schools (which most of that money is for education anyway) with big boosters; each fan, AD and league official should come to terms with what I think is an undeniable truth. This is a business and there has to be risk. The risk of spending a small amount of money on items like travel to try and make money that can then be spent on building the members and the brand. I don't think the spending would be as bad if there was a guarantee that we would get more bids to the Dance on a regular basis. As it stands now, Valpo, Green Bay and Detroit are teams that are strapped for cash.
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