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Post by commissioner on Aug 8, 2019 8:59:32 GMT -6
From a thread on the PFW addition. When IUPUI was added from the time it was announced that expansion was happening to the it being public info this board managed to create a 7 page thread. Most message boards around the league had a robust conversation. This time PFW generated maybe 15 posts on this board. No matter your take on PFW that is a bad sign for fan engagement. Not good enough to be excited and not dumb enough to piss people off is the general feedback. I like the move in general but man there is major fan apathy around the league. It's time for some major changes. When IUPUI was added, it was on the heels of LeCrone making an announcement of sorts that the HL could expand to as high as 14. After Valpo left, the masses were now waiting to see by how much the League would grow. Quite a few names were thrown around, but in the end we all know what happened. This time around EVERYBODY (meaning us HL posters and mid-major fans) had an idea that Fort Wayne would be invited, it was just a matter of time. Even if RMU had come along it would have generated the same response or lack thereof. It was expected. I think the fan apathy is because of the quality of our league overall which is a direct result of the quality of our respective teams. We've all talked about if before: how does the League get better overall? What are member institutions doing with their athletic programs to make them competitive? As an example, when our coach Steve McClain came on board he recruited and SIGNED a number of 3-star players. Since then, the only 3-star he has signed has been PF big Taeyon Neal for the upcoming season. I personally think a move to the HL will help PFW. Coach Jon Coffman is a pretty good coach and now being in a tightly geographic league with new recruiting opportunities closer to home in Cincinnati, Chicago, Indianapolis, Detrot, Cleveland and Milwaukee will benefit. Hopefully the travel savings will be put into the program to help. Tough times. A few years ago, home schedules might still feature the likes of Wisconsin at Milwaukee, Virginia at Green Bay, St. John's at Detroit, and other quality matchups. Hard to get, uncommon, but not an endangered species and regular enough the league would have 3-6 such marquee home games each year. What's the best true home game announced this year so far? Indiana State at Wright State? Evansville at Green Bay? That's a big drop off. And of course, all mid-majors are in the same boat. Attendance is dropping. Last year, average home attendance fell in 22 of 32 D-1 conferences. The Horizon's drop of nearly 6 percent (5.8% to be precise) was surpassed on the down side only by the SWAC (down a whopping 20.5% from a low base), Northeast (down 11.1%), Big West (down 9.5%), Patriot (8.6%), Summit (8.4%), Conference USA (8.2%), MEAC (6.2%). Notice these are all mid-major conferences. There are now 3 Horizon teams (IUPUI, CSU, and Northern Kentucky) that have nothing resembling a functioning fan forum, and IPF will likely be a fourth. Some discussion has moved to twitter, but not much, and that's no place for real discussion anyway. Besides Butler's Final Four teams in 2010 and 2011, the HL had Sweet 16 teams in 2003 (Butler) and 2005 (Milwaukee) and also got wins out of Milwaukee in 2006 and CSU in 2009. Detroit won first round games in 1998 ad 1999. The league got at-large bids in 1995, 1996, 1998 (2), 2003, 2007, and 2009. Now we haven't won a tournament game since Butler's 2011 semi-final win, or gotten an at-large since 2009. That's the longest the league has gone in both those categories since it was basically reconstituted in the 1990s by absorbing the top half of the Summit (nee "MCC"). Mid-major basketball is dying, and the Horizon is one of the main dying conferences.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 8, 2019 14:21:42 GMT -6
Speaking of NKU, they've already proven what can be done to change the tide...WIN! I'm not a big stats guy but do know that when the Norse joined the HL their attendance had fallen off big time since their heyday D2 days. As an institution they went out and hired the RIGHT AD, who then hired the RIGHT coach, who in turned recruited quality players. The result was WINNING basketball...in a PRO market no less! Their attendance was top two in the HL with Wright State, which also hired the RIGHT coach for the time. Those two programs along with Oakland have proven that it's imperative to do the research and have good instincts in hiring the right AD and Coach for your program. We at UIC hired the right AD at the time and we also believed that he was going to pull the trigger on getting rid of Coach McClain and get a quality X's and O's coach to run the sideline.
All in all, the recipe is simple: WIN! It doesn't matter if you're in a Pro Sports market or not...Just win baby!
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Apathy
Aug 9, 2019 11:37:44 GMT -6
Post by gbphoenix1 on Aug 9, 2019 11:37:44 GMT -6
I agree with much of what Big D wrote. Some standards would go a long way. The big challenge in this is that standards require money. Some of these programs are on life support with ticket, marketing and donation money.
With that said here are my tiers as I evaluate the league members:
Doing the right things. Wright State has a good budget, facilities and fan interest. This is the only (yes NKU fans I am looking at you) program in the league that is ready for the MVC.
Doing most of the right things. Oakland, NKU and GB. These programs are competitive and mostly consistent but lack something in budget or facilities category.
Need some help. Detroit Mercy, UIC, UWM and CSU. I am not sure how to resurrect fan interest in these spots but something is missing here. Except for Detroit they all have good enough game facilities yet nobody cares that they have spent some time and money on their programs.
Hopeless. IUPUI and YSU have limited fan interest and not a lot going on the budget side. IUPUI has more hope than YSU but seems to lack a vision to do anything with their position (hoops city, large student/alumni base and decent arena). If YSU is good with Calhoun he will be gone and the question is can they get lucky enough to replicate that? They don't have much to offer IMO.
Fort Wayne probably need some help category right now. If they actually can spend some money they should be in the doing most of the right things. If done correctly they can build a little momentum in the Horizon League. I sense they are more relevant in Fort Wayne than the "Need some help" or "hopeless" teams are in their respective home towns.
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Apathy
Aug 9, 2019 15:29:31 GMT -6
Post by vugrad1314 on Aug 9, 2019 15:29:31 GMT -6
It's interesting that you consider Wright State ready for the MVC should the MVC consider an expansion to the east or any expansion at all for that matter but NKU is not ready. The sentiment on the MVC board is opposite. NKU is considered the more ready of the two. Can I ask why you think NKU is not quite ready? Is it their budget? Because their facilities are top notch and they have great fan support.
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Apathy
Aug 9, 2019 15:40:28 GMT -6
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Post by gbphoenix1 on Aug 9, 2019 15:40:28 GMT -6
It's interesting that you consider Wright State ready for the MVC should the MVC consider an expansion to the east or any expansion at all for that matter but NKU is not ready. The sentiment on the MVC board is opposite. NKU is considered the more ready of the two. Can I ask why you think NKU is not quite ready? Is it their budget? Because their facilities are top notch and they have great fan support. WSU spends over $1,000,000 more on basketball than NKU. WSU has a practice facility separate of their shared arena. WSU consistently draws over 4000 fans. WSU has done this under Brownell, Donlan and Nagy. NKU hasn't proven they were more than a flash in the pan with a good coach and a good player. Plus they haven't had huge attendance despite a good 3 year run and being in a bigger market. Look beyond the shiny building and see what have they really proven? Ten years ago CSU was winning NCAA tournament games. Fifteen years ago so was UWM. It takes money and fans to keep it rolling in mid major hoops. This isn't the field of dreams, if you build it they will come. NKU needs to have a much bigger run while increasing spending and maybe building a practice gym before they can dream off competing in the MVC.
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Apathy
Aug 9, 2019 16:11:47 GMT -6
Post by vugrad1314 on Aug 9, 2019 16:11:47 GMT -6
Excellent argument. Wright State also brings excellent baseball. Not good baseball. Excellent baseball. And baseball is a sport that matters in the MVC.
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Post by commissioner on Aug 9, 2019 18:09:52 GMT -6
I don't think mid-major basketball is dying. I still see fans of plenty of mid-major conferences that are excited about their teams and their conference. The HL is dying a very slow death and everyone that has options to leave is looking at their own exit strategy if they want to admit it publicly or not. The problem with this conference is that there are no standards and no leadership. We don't require teams spend a minimum on sports and we don't have any type of scheduling requirements. If you look at the premiere mid-major conferences they all have scheduling guidelines that their member institutes must follow or they don't get to share in their conference NCAA tournament money and/or TV revenue. Those same conferences don't invite schools into their conference unless they have a similar athletic department budget or at least make a commitment to increase their athletic department budget before they are invited to their conference. And most importantly, good conferences have great leaders. LeCrone should have been fired several years before Butler left. He had a chance to improve the HL with several quality mid-major teams that were interested in joining the HL and didn't have the foresight to improve the league when he had the chance. I know for a fact that we could have gotten Evansville back to the HL, added Murray State, Belmont, and Oakland all at the same time we added Valpo but LeCrone only pushed the universities to add 1 program and we picked Valpo. If he would have solidified the league back then we might not have lost Butler as soon as we did. We might not have lost Valpo at all and we might still be a top tier mid-major conference. Unfortunately, LeCrone has been 100% reactionary in every move he has made and all of his additions have been schools that were begging to get into the conference. We could have added Oakland at any point in time up to 10 years before they joined the HL if we would have just said yes. The same is true for IUPUI and Fort Wayne. They have been begging for a spot forever. NKU even used the HL as their destination conference in their justification to go D1 to their alumni base when they were raising funds to make the move. He didn't do shit to add any of these schools. The HL is dying a slow death. I don't think it is too late to turn things around if we would just make the move to get rid of LeCrone and hire a commissioner with some foresight and enough backbone to talk our member schools into setting up some spending and scheduling standards. If we just stay on our current path, I think 2-3 of our current members will be gone within the next 3 years and they are the only schools that are currently showing any desire to put together winning programs. Mid-major ball is dying. Sure, there are bright lights, and it's true that the D1 ranks keep expanding. And yes, there are plenty of excited fans, but the fact is, fewer than their used to be. Mid-major average attendance is down considerably, and has been falling for some time. It has become almost impossible to schedule non-conference home games with power teams, and most of the in-season tournaments are now set up to make sure that no power team faces a mid-major on even a neutral court. The power teams now routinely and aggressively seek transfers from the mid-majors better players, something unheard of just a decade ago. Mid-major at-large bids to the NCAA tournament are increasingly rare. The differences in facilities and fan support are more pronounced than ever, and coupled with national recruitment it is increasingly rare for mid-majors to nab top talent (which, if they do, is often poached by the power teams). The condition is not irreversible, but the current trajectory is clear, and a split into I-A and I-AA ranks is coming into view. None of this is to contest the atrocious failures of the Horizon leadership, which must include considerable blame for the presidents as well as the commissioner.
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Apathy
Aug 9, 2019 19:14:07 GMT -6
Post by motorcitysam on Aug 9, 2019 19:14:07 GMT -6
I don't think mid-major basketball is dying. I still see fans of plenty of mid-major conferences that are excited about their teams and their conference. The HL is dying a very slow death and everyone that has options to leave is looking at their own exit strategy if they want to admit it publicly or not. The problem with this conference is that there are no standards and no leadership. We don't require teams spend a minimum on sports and we don't have any type of scheduling requirements. If you look at the premiere mid-major conferences they all have scheduling guidelines that their member institutes must follow or they don't get to share in their conference NCAA tournament money and/or TV revenue. Those same conferences don't invite schools into their conference unless they have a similar athletic department budget or at least make a commitment to increase their athletic department budget before they are invited to their conference. And most importantly, good conferences have great leaders. LeCrone should have been fired several years before Butler left. He had a chance to improve the HL with several quality mid-major teams that were interested in joining the HL and didn't have the foresight to improve the league when he had the chance. I know for a fact that we could have gotten Evansville back to the HL, added Murray State, Belmont, and Oakland all at the same time we added Valpo but LeCrone only pushed the universities to add 1 program and we picked Valpo. If he would have solidified the league back then we might not have lost Butler as soon as we did. We might not have lost Valpo at all and we might still be a top tier mid-major conference. Unfortunately, LeCrone has been 100% reactionary in every move he has made and all of his additions have been schools that were begging to get into the conference. We could have added Oakland at any point in time up to 10 years before they joined the HL if we would have just said yes. The same is true for IUPUI and Fort Wayne. They have been begging for a spot forever. NKU even used the HL as their destination conference in their justification to go D1 to their alumni base when they were raising funds to make the move. He didn't do shit to add any of these schools. The HL is dying a slow death. I don't think it is too late to turn things around if we would just make the move to get rid of LeCrone and hire a commissioner with some foresight and enough backbone to talk our member schools into setting up some spending and scheduling standards. If we just stay on our current path, I think 2-3 of our current members will be gone within the next 3 years and they are the only schools that are currently showing any desire to put together winning programs. Mid-major ball is dying. Sure, there are bright lights, and it's true that the D1 ranks keep expanding. And yes, there are plenty of excited fans, but the fact is, fewer than their used to be. Mid-major average attendance is down considerably, and has been falling for some time. It has become almost impossible to schedule non-conference home games with power teams, and most of the in-season tournaments are now set up to make sure that no power team faces a mid-major on even a neutral court. The power teams now routinely and aggressively seek transfers from the mid-majors better players, something unheard of just a decade ago. Mid-major at-large bids to the NCAA tournament are increasingly rare. The differences in facilities and fan support are more pronounced than ever, and coupled with national recruitment it is increasingly rare for mid-majors to nab top talent (which, if they do, is often poached by the power teams). The condition is not irreversible, but the current trajectory is clear, and a split into I-A and I-AA ranks is coming into view. None of this is to contest the atrocious failures of the Horizon leadership, which must include considerable blame for the presidents as well as the commissioner. That's a bleak point of view, Commissioner, but I'd have to agree with you. The gaps between the haves and have nots is growing. Even the bad power teams can thrive financially thanks to the pots of money that conferences split in NCAA tournament appearances and TV contracts. A few years ago the Titans hosted Mississippi State and St. John's in the same season. I can't imagine that happening again anytime soon. And every mid major coach is hoping that their players become "good, but not too good" so they don't get snatched up by a high major program. The NCAA provides no real support for mid majors, so I don't see things getting better.
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Apathy
Aug 9, 2019 22:51:17 GMT -6
Post by vugrad1314 on Aug 9, 2019 22:51:17 GMT -6
NKU could very well prove they can maintain their success under a new coach but I think the MVC is going to take a wait and see approach after the way Valpo has under performed since their move there. An argument that was made for a very long time with Valpo was that they wouldn't be able to be successful without a Drew as their head coach. The Drews were always able to do more with less at Valpo. They are struggling now without them because they don't have the facilities and university support needed to succeed in the Valley. NKU hit lightning in a bottle with their first D1 basketball coaching hire. If they are able to keep their program rolling with their new head coach they are going to be an attractive program for future expansion. If they struggle the first couple of years with their new coach, I don't think they get an invite to the Valley. I don't have 2018/19 numbers but in 2017/18 Wright State spent 3 million on basketball. NKU spent less than 2 million. Only time will tell if their new coach can do more with less like Brannen. I think WSU would have already been invited to the MVC if the university didn't have it's financial problems over the last few years. It's a harsh statement but it is impossible for me to deny. The institutional commitment just isn't there at Valpo and we are very fortunate that things worked out as they did for us though we may become a long-term albatross in our new home which makes me very sad. I thought the move to the MVC would signal a new era and sweeping changes with respect to athletics at Valpo but it looks like (at least right now) more of the same is the order of the day. Maybe we can get Bryce back at some point and at least enjoy a few years of success in the MVC, or maybe we'll get a new president who actually cares about investing in athletics since our current president is stepping down (I'm not holding my breath).
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Apathy
Aug 10, 2019 11:42:49 GMT -6
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Post by iwokeuplikethis on Aug 10, 2019 11:42:49 GMT -6
I wouldn’t sleep on Fort Wayne:
- This is a school who’s recently beaten a blueblood twice. That’s instant value to any mid-major league.
- They don’t have to raise their budget to increase MBB spending. The travel expenses of the Dakotas/Omaha/Tulsa/Denver can simply convert into non-travel MBB spending.
- Fort Wayne is a perfect niche market. They aren’t overshadowed by a nfl/nhl/nba team. They’re 80 miles removed from any D1 team, all while enjoying the benefits of geographic centricity within their league. Fort Wayne is large enough to gain a following but small enough to have a cohesive identity. There is an opening for the town to rally around winning Mastodon basketball, much like the minor league hockey team. That arena has served as a hub for the community for generations, so that familiarity alongside wins and future regional rivalries could inspire the locals. Fort Wayne at its heart is a sports city.
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Apathy
Aug 10, 2019 12:09:11 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by ougrizz05 on Aug 10, 2019 12:09:11 GMT -6
I wouldn’t sleep on Fort Wayne: - This is a school who’s recently beaten a blueblood twice. That’s instant value to any mid-major league. - They don’t have to raise their budget to increase MBB spending. The travel expenses of the Dakotas/Omaha/Tulsa/Denver can simply convert into non-travel MBB spending. - Fort Wayne is a perfect niche market. They aren’t overshadowed by a nfl/nhl/nba team. They’re 80 miles removed from any D1 team, all while enjoying the benefits of geographic centricity within their league. Fort Wayne is large enough to gain a following but small enough to have a cohesive identity. There is an opening for the town to rally around winning Mastodon basketball, much like the minor league hockey team. That arena has served as a hub for the community for generations, so that familiarity alongside wins and future regional rivalries could inspire the locals. Fort Wayne at its heart is a sports city. I appreciate your optimism. Hopefully you are right.
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Apathy
Aug 12, 2019 9:44:25 GMT -6
Post by gbphoenix1 on Aug 12, 2019 9:44:25 GMT -6
The travel costs will come down for PFW across the entire department but how they allocate that money will be important for men's hoops. Also, they are still lacking in other areas that will require them to invest more money.
For men's basketball they were making about 5 flying trips per year in conference play. In the horizon league they will still need hotels, meals and bus transportation. The bus component will probably become more expensive. Hotels in some of the Horizon cities might be as well. For this conversation lets focus on flying only. Assuming their traveling party is 25 people per trip at an average cost of $600 per person, the five flying trips per year would cost $75,000.
Fort Wayne doesn't appear to have as many administrative basketball staff as much of the league has. The staff they do have doesn't have a super competitive salary pool. They have been scheduling about 3 or 4 non D1 home games per year. I am not sure what their recruiting budget looks like. Plus the Gates building would be down the list in the HL in terms of practice gyms (see WSU, CSU, UIC and GB for examples of better practice set ups). My point is $75,000 isn't going to fix all of this.
Now baseball, softball, M/W soccer, women's basketball and volleyball should all experience a cost savings. In the athletic department world, I can't see taking money from these sports and sending it to men's hoops but maybe I am wrong.
Either way I am receptive to Fort Wayne. This is a good market for college sports that with some additional financial help should make PFW a solid member of the HL.
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