|
|
Post by HLFanaticus on Apr 21, 2014 10:21:47 GMT -6
Link- Belmont Joins HL as Affiliate in SoccerFrom Bill Potter of the HL offices: @billpotter_HL "Included in affiliate membership with Belmont is non-conf scheduling agreement. 6 home/homes with #HLMBB teams over next 4 years." @billpotter_HL "Non-conference scheduling agreement also extends to WBB, Baseball, Softball, WSOC." From: HorizonLeague.com
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2014 11:26:25 GMT -6
On the surface, it's a great move, but looking at the agreement, it appears that Belmont won't be joining for all sports anytime soon. The best it seems that LeCrone and the Board of Directors got from Belmont was 6 home/away games with Horizon League teams over the next four years. Maybe this is a litmus test to gauge cost of travel and will playing against HL teams help their rpi, and vice versa for HL teams.
|
|
|
|
Post by commissioner on Apr 21, 2014 12:45:14 GMT -6
Belmont is having an extra-marital affair. She wants to play footsie with the Horizon, but stay married to the OVC.
My hope is that this is the lead-in to full membership, but I've got to be skeptical. I'm trying to remember when these "affiliate" arrangements ever have led to full membership. In the late 1980s, Notre Dame was an affiliate of the Horizon, but could never be swayed to bring their basketball in, even with Marquette, Dayton, Xavier and St. Louis in the league, and even though they were playing as an independent. The MAC keeps taking affiliate football members but they never join en toto. It may have happened with other leagues but I don't remember any such episodes. Meanwhile, we've given up a chit to bring them into the league - men's soccer - that they want. So maybe this is a lead in to more, but maybe not.
I'm trying to understand the arrangement in basketball. Do they mean they will play 6 teams H&H - i.e. a total of 12 games over the next 4 years? That's what I think. That's OK, but not really much. Or it could be read to mean as many as 12 games a year - essentially their entire non-conference schedule. But I don't think that's it.
Certainly not what we'd hoped for. But I'll try to look on bright side and assume we'll have them in the league before the 4 year current contract is up.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2014 14:16:55 GMT -6
Belmont is having an extra-marital affair. She wants to play footsie with the Horizon, but stay married to the OVC. My hope is that this is the lead-in to full membership, but I've got to be skeptical. I'm trying to remember when these "affiliate" arrangements ever have led to full membership. In the late 1980s, Notre Dame was an affiliate of the Horizon, but could never be swayed to bring their basketball in, even with Marquette, Dayton, Xavier and St. Louis in the league, and even though they were playing as an independent. The MAC keeps taking affiliate football members but they never join en toto. It may have happened with other leagues but I don't remember any such episodes. Meanwhile, we've given up a chit to bring them into the league - men's soccer - that they want. So maybe this is a lead in to more, but maybe not. I'm trying to understand the arrangement in basketball. Do they mean they will play 6 teams H&H - i.e. a total of 12 games over the next 4 years? That's what I think. That's OK, but not really much. Or it could be read to mean as many as 12 games a year - essentially their entire non-conference schedule. But I don't think that's it. Certainly not what we'd hoped for. But I'll try to look on bright side and assume we'll have them in the league before the 4 year current contract is up. The one difference between Notre Dame and Belmont is ND was a bigger program and full of themselves. Belmont is no where near that and does not have a powerhouse football program. As far as the scheduling, I think it's 12 games over the four year agreement. If they were going to play 12 HL games each year, then they might as well join outright! It will be interesting to see what happens after this. Will the two not re-engage until the 4 years are up? Will negotiations continue during the 4 years? Does the $500,000 OVC exit fee have anything to do with Belmont not fully leaving? Since we presumably have an answer for now concerning Belmont, what about other teams? Murray State, Evansville, Robert Morris, Northern Kentucky? |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2014 17:24:51 GMT -6
So will the HL just be content with the affiliation of Belmont or will it continue to seek full membership from other candidates? Does the affiliation agreement ease the consternation that some fans express concerning the stability of the HL? So Belmont plays games with MBB, WBB, Baseball, Softball and Men's & Women's Soccer. Is that enough to woo others and to satisfy HL fans?
I hope this arrangement with Belmont doesn't become standard practice and we have affiliation arrangements with other potential candidates as a "test run" before they decide to join or not.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2014 19:51:16 GMT -6
I agree with "...worth jumping through a few hoops to get". I just don't want other teams to try and work out some sort of arrangement as a "look-and-see" situation. Maybe a Murray State or a Robert Morris, schools that have some tradition and/or expands the footprint and recruiting of the HL, might try it.
Belmont is a great add, although it's only for soccer. We just have to wait and see what else happens.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 21, 2014 21:03:37 GMT -6
Yeah, that's a good one! They need a good drubbing for how they handled things over the course of the last 2 years.
|
|
|
|
Post by kevinudm on Apr 22, 2014 9:35:14 GMT -6
This definitely looks like a precursor to bigger things, because it makes little sense as a stand-alone move:
- The Horizon League does not normally do affiliate memberships (this is the first in 30 years), but is making an exception here for a Belmont soccer team that is unexceptional (6-10-2 last season) and a little awkward geographically.
- The HL already had 8 men's soccer teams and had no particular need for a ninth.
- The scheduling partnership - affecting five other sports (men's and women's basketball, baseball, softball and women's soccer) - is really unusual. Sometimes an affiliate conference membership is accompanied by a scheduling arrangement, when the affiliate member remains an independent in the sports with the scheduling arrangement. (Notre Dame has a scheduling agreement with the ACC for football, but ND football remains independent.) I know of no other example where a school makes a wide ranging scheduling agreement with another conference, where the teams involved already have a conference membership.
- If Belmont wanted a home for men's soccer but did not want the scheduling agreement, they had other options. The Summit League has only seven men's soccer teams and would likely have been eager to add Belmont as a soccer-only affiliate, on whatever terms Belmont preferred.
My take is that Belmont is interested in the HL but does not want to become the tenth member. They will come aboard only when there are two additional new members coming from south of the HL's current geographic footprint (Belmont, NKU and Evansville or Lipscomb). But NKU needs another year or two before it is ready for the HL, so this cannot be arranged for 2014-15.
And of course Belmont keeps its options open for the time being, in case the HL is raided again or other conference suitors appear for Belmont (A-10 or MVC).
But Belmont is definitely open to full HL membership in the next few years.
|
|
|
|
Post by commissioner on Apr 22, 2014 12:44:31 GMT -6
This definitely looks like a precursor to bigger things, because it makes little sense as a stand-alone move:
- The Horizon League does not normally do affiliate memberships (this is the first in 30 years), but is making an exception here for a Belmont soccer team that is unexceptional (6-10-2 last season) and a little awkward geographically.
- The HL already had 8 men's soccer teams and had no particular need for a ninth.
- The scheduling partnership - affecting five other sports (men's and women's basketball, baseball, softball and women's soccer) - is really unusual. Sometimes an affiliate conference membership is accompanied by a scheduling arrangement, when the affiliate member remains an independent in the sports with the scheduling arrangement. (Notre Dame has a scheduling agreement with the ACC for football, but ND football remains independent.) I know of no other example where a school makes a wide ranging scheduling agreement with another conference, where the teams involved already have a conference membership.
- If Belmont wanted a home for men's soccer but did not want the scheduling agreement, they had other options. The Summit League has only seven men's soccer teams and would likely have been eager to add Belmont as a soccer-only affiliate, on whatever terms Belmont preferred.
My take is that Belmont is interested in the HL but does not want to become the tenth member. They will come aboard only when there are two additional new members coming from south of the HL's current geographic footprint (Belmont, NKU and Evansville or Lipscomb). But NKU needs another year or two before it is ready for the HL, so this cannot be arranged for 2014-15.
And of course Belmont keeps its options open for the time being, in case the HL is raided again or other conference suitors appear for Belmont (A-10 or MVC).
But Belmont is definitely open to full HL membership in the next few years.
Agree with what you've written but one small point - the MAC had both Temple and UMass agree to several home and home basketball series as part of their joining the MAC for football, even though they were both members of other conferences for basketball. On the other hand, you did say " wide ranging scheduling agreement," and like you I'm not familiar with any such agreement that included several sports. ;-) |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2014 13:43:02 GMT -6
My take is that Belmont is interested in the HL but does not want to become the tenth member. They will come aboard only when there are two additional new members coming from south of the HL's current geographic footprint (Belmont, NKU and Evansville or Lipscomb). But NKU needs another year or two before it is ready for the HL, so this cannot be arranged for 2014-15.
And of course Belmont keeps its options open for the time being, in case the HL is raided again or other conference suitors appear for Belmont (A-10 or MVC).
But Belmont is definitely open to full HL membership in the next few years.
Very well said. It is a very shrewd move by Belmont. It protects them from an "Oral Roberts"-type situation (going to a conference only to have it not be the conference they joined, for whatever reason), while at the same time giving them some mid-major scheduling in the rpi range that most of us talk about playing in order to shore up an OOC SOS. All the while they are firmly in control of their destiny as they look over the landscape. The Big East will be silent for a few. The Big Dogs, with the exception of some cleaning up this upcoming season (Louisville to the ACC and Maryland and Rutgers to the B1G) are done for a while. So whatever movement that's coming is coming from mid-major programs, but Belmont wants to make the "right" move. They've already moved once, going from the A-Sun to the OVC. They don't strike me as an institution that's knee-jerk, but thoughtful and planning. The Horizon League member schools once again have a chance to grab the bull by the horns and break through into the top ten rankings. If this league has averaged a ranking of 12 for some time, how much more of an effort (a win or two here, a defensive stop there, a little more effort to get that 3-star recruit) will it take to move up?! |
|
|
|
Post by kevinudm on Apr 22, 2014 16:37:20 GMT -6
Agree with what you've written but one small point - the MAC had both Temple and UMass agree to several home and home basketball series as part of their joining the MAC for football, even though they were both members of other conferences for basketball. On the other hand, you did say " wide ranging scheduling agreement," and like you I'm not familiar with any such agreement that included several sports. ;-) You're correct; UMass agreed to a scheduling agreement for both men's and women's basketball with the MAC in order to find a home for football (www.scribd.com/doc/54481290/Final-Agreement-between-UMass-and-the-Mid-American-Conference) and I suspect that the Temple agreement with the MAC was the same.
Still, Temple and UMass would have agreed to just about anything to get into a conference for football (they also paid the MAC's full $500,000 joining fee for their affiliate memberships). Belmont's need for a home for men's soccer was far less urgent; yet they agreed to a 5-sport scheduling agreement, rather than the 2-sport agreements that Temple and UMass agreed to with the MAC.
The Belmont/HL scheduling agreement is an indication a long term interest between the two parties, and a willingness to state that interest publicly. Whatever the future holds for Belmont, I don't think that they will remain in the OVC for more than another year or two.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2014 18:43:25 GMT -6
The Belmont/HL scheduling agreement is an indication a long term interest between the two parties, and a willingness to state that interest publicly. Whatever the future holds for Belmont, I don't think that they will remain in the OVC for more than another year or two. Along those lines, I would like to know what the thinking of the OVC is. They obviously see what we see: Belmont and the Horizon League in a relationship that's more than your regular affiliation. The OVC knows that Belmont has no football and was looking for a place for their soccer team. Realistically, the Horizon League schools are more in line academically and vision-wise with Belmont than the OVC schools. Does the OVC, seeing the possible handwriting on the wall concerning Belmont, "push them out" at some point or make it a bit uncomfortable for them? Is that what Belmont is possibly hoping for and thus avoid the $500,000 OVC exit fee? At any rate, I too don't believe the Bruins will stay in the OVC the full four years of the affiliate agreement. My over/under for Belmont joining as a full member is under 2 years. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Apr 22, 2014 21:24:34 GMT -6
That's very plausible and I'm 100% in agreement. I just wish it didn't have to be the entire 4 years...and maybe it won't be. The focus now has to be on southern members. You mentioned 2 more southern members. Does it really have to be 2 more? The ones that have been bandied about is Murray State, Evansville and Lipscomb. Why not one more southern school and then NKU or even Robert Morris?
|
|
|
|
Post by gbphoenix1 on Apr 24, 2014 7:59:07 GMT -6
I personally agree that the 4 years is just a deadline for the HL to add 2 more southern teams. If they can do it before the 4 years then Belmont will join as a full member sooner and if they can't then they won't be a part of the HL in any form. I think from a resource, competitiveness and name brand standpoint Murray St and Evansville would be ideal. Evansville would be a bit of a long travel partner for WSU but it is only an hour longer drive than Detroit was. Both schools are 2 hours from Belmont. From a realistic standpoint I think NKU would get the call as soon as either Evansville or Murray State joined the league.
|
|
|
|
Post by commissioner on Apr 24, 2014 13:34:16 GMT -6
I personally agree that the 4 years is just a deadline for the HL to add 2 more southern teams. If they can do it before the 4 years then Belmont will join as a full member sooner and if they can't then they won't be a part of the HL in any form. I think from a resource, competitiveness and name brand standpoint Murray St and Evansville would be ideal. Evansville would be a bit of a long travel partner for WSU but it is only an hour longer drive than Detroit was. Both schools are 2 hours from Belmont. From a realistic standpoint I think NKU would get the call as soon as either Evansville or Murray State joined the league. I'm sure Murray State and Evansville would get the call first, but would they answer? I'm skeptical, especially Murray State. |
|
