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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2021 11:04:20 GMT -6
True, but I have a fondness for the Horizon League dating back to at least '80-81 when it was the MCC eventhough UIC was a part of the Mid-Continent Conference. I even have mixed feelings now. I've always wanted the HL to get back to the times when it was a top 10-12 conference. I even thought (as I do every year) that this would be the year that the league would be at least a top 15-17 conference. So, whatever happens, happens. I'll be content with whichever scenario.
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Post by gbphoenix1 on Nov 25, 2021 18:22:55 GMT -6
The league is at a low point. What exactly is the Chicago market bringing to make the league successful?
I think there is no reason at all to even kick the tires on Chicago State, let alone add them to the league.
I will take my chances on moving forward without a Chicago presence before taking my chances on Chicago State.
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Post by gbphoenix1 on Nov 25, 2021 18:28:09 GMT -6
If the MVC is looking at UIC or UMKC under the assumption that they will add resources I would say buyer beware. If these schools had any intention of spending the money it takes to kick butt they would have already done so.
So in a sense please take UIC's craptastic hoops teams off our hands. You make the HL better on day one. I will take my chances on the HL being better through subtraction than UIC actually breaking through and becoming a good hoops brand again.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 25, 2021 21:36:35 GMT -6
If the MVC is looking at UIC or UMKC under the assumption that they will add resources I would say buyer beware. If these schools had any intention of spending the money it takes to kick butt they would have already done so. So in a sense please take UIC's craptastic hoops teams off our hands. You make the HL better on day one. I will take my chances on the HL being better through subtraction than UIC actually breaking through and becoming a good hoops brand again. Wow! Was that really necessary? I was just giving possible scenarios, not advocating for UIC to leave. But you already read the intent of my post correctly. For your information, the Flames added resources, but increased resources doesn't mean you'll hire a good coach. UIC didn't get it right...twice...after Jimmy Collins left. This time with the hire of Luke Yaklich, I think the team has a good coach, just like you guys feel Will Ryan is a good coach. Also UIC is in the midst of spending $4.2 mil on a new soccer complex that will be ready for next season. A new basketball arena is in the works. All of this after spending money on new academic and student housing buildings. But you wouldn't know any of that. How could you when you're way up there?! In 2013, UIC had it's ducks in a row to the satisfaction of the MVC expansion committee until Expansion Committee Chair, Missouri State President Smart wanted to see what Loyola had to say (they wanted a private anyway to balance the private/public at 5). Loyola said the right things and the rest is history. The Chicago market brings absolutely nothing to make the league successful. It just provides a recruiting mecca for regular students and student-athletes for some of the teams in a conference that has Chicago. It's the educators, team coaches and staff that make any league successful. Finally, our craptastic team leaving the conference will make the HL better on day one? What happened? Did Green Bay leave already? |
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Post by gbphoenix1 on Nov 26, 2021 8:53:22 GMT -6
Enrollment is down across many of the member schools.
Finances are in tough shape at several schools.
Men's basketball is way down, the existing membership hasn't won an NCAA tournament game since 2009.
So is Chicago really that important? It's nice to have but is it really that important to the league if the leadership was being honest?
Soccer stadiums are nice, GB spent $4 million on a new one less than 5 years ago. That doesn't help basketball one bit.
While UIC invested in resources it isn't reflected in men's basketball. They would be tied for 6th in the MVC as of the 2020 reporting. That may include McClain buyout costs which would then put them closer to second last in the MVC.
Now for the fun part. Since Dick Bennett left GB, UIC is 179-249 in HL play. GB in that same time is 242-190. Against UIC Heideman was 7-7, Kowalczyk 10-7, Wardle 10-2, Darner 8-4 and Ryan 1-1. So to imply GB is the problem is just ridiculously stupid. I will double down on my comments about men's basketball gets better on day one if UIC were to leave. Don't let the door hit you on the butt...
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Post by sycamorefan96 on Dec 12, 2021 8:07:55 GMT -6
You might have a chance at getting Indiana State and I'm not joking either. I can't imagine that we're too happy about the possibility of having to send a bunch of our teams to Texas every year just to help the private schools with recruiting students.
ISU has a ton of alumni in the Indy area. Having the HL tournament, plus being involved in the Indy region more through IUPUI seems like positives to me.
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Post by gbphoenix1 on Dec 13, 2021 10:27:27 GMT -6
Let me preface this post with it's not going to happen but it is worth noting.
Since Evansville joined the MVC prior to the 1994-95 season their MVC conference record is 198-288. They have made one NCAA tournament back in 1999.
Evansville has access to a good arena, a nice practice facility and spends at a pretty good level. Plus 11% of their alumni are in Indianapolis, by far their largest (good video on YouTube from MVC board with this alumni info).
In that same time period Indiana State has an MVC record of 210-276. They do have 3 NCAA tournament trips as well as a pair of NIT trips.
Indiana State is at the bottom of MVC spending but just did a very nice update to their arena. Also, 25% of their alums live in Indianapolis, by far their largest.
Both teams are currently just in a wait and hope mode. Hoping they hit the right combination of people to gain relevance. That does work sometimes. It wasn't that long ago that Thursday at the MVC tournament was known as Drake day.
However, if being competitive on the court is a priority going to a level they can compete at isn't the worst idea. Especially when the MVC is busy trying to add 3 teams that will water the league down while adding markets that aren't really important to these schools.
I know the prestige and money in the MVC are better so this won't happen but the information is still interesting to me.
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Post by commissioner on Dec 21, 2021 9:44:40 GMT -6
A strong push to add Evansville and Belmont or Murray State might have worked around 2011.
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Post by runnerdad on Dec 21, 2021 15:31:38 GMT -6
It is also worth noting that Indiana State would also need to find a home for their football team if they joined the HL. Once again, I'm not against either joining the HL. I just don't see it happening. They wouldn't, actually. The MVC is a separate conference from the MVFC. They could decide to continue to play football in the MVFC and move the rest of their sports to HL. If that were to happen, they'd be in the same situation as YSU. I don't know that it will or won't happen, I'm just saying that it's not a barrier in this situation. |
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Post by metrosjags1969 on Dec 30, 2021 11:41:19 GMT -6
Let me preface this post with it's not going to happen but it is worth noting. Since Evansville joined the MVC prior to the 1994-95 season their MVC conference record is 198-288. They have made one NCAA tournament back in 1999. Evansville has access to a good arena, a nice practice facility and spends at a pretty good level. Plus 11% of their alumni are in Indianapolis, by far their largest (good video on YouTube from MVC board with this alumni info). In that same time period Indiana State has an MVC record of 210-276. They do have 3 NCAA tournament trips as well as a pair of NIT trips. Indiana State is at the bottom of MVC spending but just did a very nice update to their arena. Also, 25% of their alums live in Indianapolis, by far their largest. Both teams are currently just in a wait and hope mode. Hoping they hit the right combination of people to gain relevance. That does work sometimes. It wasn't that long ago that Thursday at the MVC tournament was known as Drake day. However, if being competitive on the court is a priority going to a level they can compete at isn't the worst idea. Especially when the MVC is busy trying to add 3 teams that will water the league down while adding markets that aren't really important to these schools. I know the prestige and money in the MVC are better so this won't happen but the information is still interesting to me. It is also worth noting that Indiana State would also need to find a home for their football team if they joined the HL. Once again, I'm not against either joining the HL. I just don't see it happening. I mean, Youngstown State is a member of the Horizon League and also a member of the Missouri Valley Football Conference, so I don't think Indiana State would be forced to the door if they move to the HL. It'd make an awkward transition, but it's possible they would stay. My issue with Chicago State, as I previously said, was they don't even factor into Chicago itself. A conference will want them because they think that will get them "into" Chicago (i.e. recruitments or postseason tournament site), but they're irrelevant in their own city, and more than often, when brought up, it's as a punchline. So, for the sake of those two aspects I mentioned, I'll quickly dispute those: - As far as recruitment goes, this season's Chicago State team only has one player from Chicago itself. Heck, they have more players from California and even someone from Sweden. If we look at UIC's roster, they at least have three local guys. So, Chicago State isn't exactly the school to go to in order to "enter" Chicago when the school itself doesn't seem to recruit local.
- As for using Chicago State to have a chance to host your postseason tournaments in the city, that would make sense if you're the MEAC and you're tired of the dingy Norfolk Scope, but the Horizon League's M.O. seems to be about building its entire base of operations around Indianapolis. That's why they went all-in on bringing in IUPUI despite the school's lack of motivation in sports. I doubt they'll use Chicago State for an excuse to host semifinal and championship games in the Windy City when they seem to have a sweetheart deal at the Fairgrounds Coliseum.
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