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Post by oklahomamick on Jun 9, 2020 13:12:46 GMT -6
In fairness, Oakland and NKU have been really good additions, Robert Morris would add value to the league even in the old Horizon and Southern Indiana and Bellarmine have significant upside potential (especially USI) to be a strong add to the conference. Yes, the old Horizon was far and away the better league but it's pointless to even bring that up since a return to the old Horizon is not a viable option. It represents a bygone era that is not going to return. For reference while Butler Loyola and Valpo are no doubt very happy to be where they are, I also have no doubt that the old guard Big East teams would rather still be in a conference with Syracuse Pittsburgh Louisville West Virginia Cincinnati Notre Dame and South Florida. And the non-Chicagoland MVC fans would no doubt rather be back in the days when Creighton and Wichita State were still a part of the conference. How would it feel to you as a Valpo fan to hear a fan of Bradley UNI Illinois State or some other old guard MVC school say "Valpo sucks I miss Wichita State; or why didn't we pick Murray State instead of Valpo?" That's basically what you're saying to the fans of the new schools when you bring up the old conference. It's unnecessarily disparaging to the new conference members, some of whom have already contributed greatly to their new home (like Oakland's multiple McCafferty trophies) and NKU's multiple NCAA tournament berths. My response is MVC fans most likely wish they had the old schools and not the new schools. And I would be okay with that, as long as Valpo was with Butler and the current programs who used to be strong, Detroit, Wright St. Cleveland st.
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Post by vugrad1314 on Jun 9, 2020 14:17:03 GMT -6
Yeah, the post-Butler HL was a weird mix of events. Valpo ascended rapidly Wright State and Green Bay held steady or improved by and large and Oakland was a solid addition from the jump but Milwaukee Cleveland State and Detroit (after the Ray McCallum years) nose dived off a cliff. I firmly believe that if Milwaukee and Cleveland State had continued to be strong the HL would have weathered the post-Butler storm with a solid core of schools and would have been in great shape. Out of all the rumored expansion candidates (and I know how pro-expansion LeCrone has always been it's never been a secret) the one that resonated most with me was Robert Morris. They were far and away the best program I was hearing mentioned (Omaha Denver and the like--those never made sense to me despite Denver's sterling academic reputation I was like "Somebody needs to get these people a map. Schools like Omaha and Denver make zero sense for this conference.") But Robert Morris was different. They were a really strong basketball brand who I think would have competed right away and added a lot of value to the league and they fit the footprint pretty well. I've hoped for their inclusion in the HL for awhile. Their status as another private school didn't hurt matters either since we and Detroit were the only ones after Butler left. I think Valpo's departure had as much or perhaps more to do with that than anything else. Yes, the league wasn't what it was, and we were (and to some degree still are) still smarting from the committee snub in 2016 and may have sought another conference because of that (since rumors of our interest in the MVC date back to 2013 when Creighton left I doubt that this was much of a factor but it may have contributed somewhat); and yes, we weren't particularly thrilled by the move away from campus sites for the conference tournament mostly because we felt like this wasn't something the league would have done while Butler the league's darling was still in the league, but also because we thrive on our home court advantage and liked the insulation and protection that having it in the tournament provided (though it didn't always do us any good as Detroit fans will fondly remember), but despite all of this, the reality remains that we were a good fit competitively in a variety of sports in the HL. Not McCafferty trophy level good but pretty solid overall (and we are slowly building toward that in the MVC right now though it's a process and has been pretty tough sledding for us to say the least not that we are asking for nor do we expect to receive any sympathy here). Despite the fact that we were a good competitive fit, and despite the fact that the fanbase by and large was ecstatic to join the league in 2007 (I know I was) and thoroughly enjoyed many of the competitive battles especially with Wright State Oakland and Green Bay even into the post-Butler era, we always felt like a cultural outlier in the conference. With Butler, we were one of just three private schools. Without them we were one of two, and the other one was an urban school which we really aren't. We're not rural by any stretch but we aren't a major city school either which made us distinct from any other HL school. The loss of Butler was more than the loss of a rival--particularly an in-state rival that left us as the only Indiana school at the time and deprived us of our biggest attendance draw each year, the loss of Butler--even though it allowed us to shine particularly in basketball--only exacerbated that sense of cultural isolation, making us feel more like an outlier. More than any other factor, that, I believe, is the reason why Valpo was so interested in making the move. Yes, we loved the brands in the MVC and the new competitive challenge, but I firmly believe that the sense of institutional fit was the driving force behind Valpo's interest in and subsequent move to the MVC. I say all of that to say this: I think Robert Morris is having the same issues and asking themselves the same questions that we had. They have by and large outgrown the NEC competitively, but while they may not be so much an institutional outlier, they are unmistakably a geographic outlier in that conference. And while the institution itself may not be an outlier, the city culture sure is. Robert Morris, situated in the Pittsburgh area, has much more in common with Youngstown State, Cleveland State, Wright State, Fort Wayne, IUPUI, Detroit, Oakland and NKU than it does with much of the NEC. Combine that with the undeniable truth that the brands in the HL are far stronger than those of the NEC, making for a stronger league with greater branding and competitive opportunities, and you can easily see why this move is possible even likely to happen in spite of the fact that Robert Morris would be something of a geographic outlier as the easternmost HL school. Culturally, they are not an outlier at all. The reasons may not be identical, but as a Valpo fan, I can totally understand why Robert Morris would want to join the HL and why it's a great fit for both the school and the conference.
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Post by letsgoromo on Jun 9, 2020 17:35:42 GMT -6
Robert Morris fan here, lots of smoke to this fire. I would be very happy with a move to HL. In my opinion better option than the MAAC.
Hopefully it happens. Would love to see some HL schools add lax, though understand current conditions likely exclude that for years.
Interested in your thoughts, if RMU is in HL this year, where do you think they would finish?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 9, 2020 18:34:30 GMT -6
Robert Morris fan here, lots of smoke to this fire. I would be very happy with a move to HL. In my opinion better option than the MAAC. Hopefully it happens. Would love to see some HL schools add lax, though understand current conditions likely exclude that for years. Interested in your thoughts, if RMU is in HL this year, where do you think they would finish? Welcome letsgoromo. It's tough to say where they would finish. Last season it would have been behind UIC (Wright State, NKU, Green Bay, Youngstown State, UIC). I like Coach Toole and the program he's put together. A move to the HL, although we've fallen off a bit, will be much better than a move to the MAAC. Your travel would actually be less. The exposure for RMU would be better. The HL has games on ESPN and ESPN2 during the season which helps immensely. I think Coach Toole would do quite well recruiting in big city markets like Chicago, Cleveland, Detroit, Cincinnati and Indianapolis which joining the HL would bring. The one concern is that RMU has only 3 men's sports that would play Horizon League-sponsored sports. I understand men's Hoops is the golden egg and the powers that be are hoping for a possible favorable RMU decision. If the Colonials came in for '20-'21, they could finish top 5-6. Wright State & NKU will still be at the top. Cleveland State should be a threat next season and Coach Calhoun at Youngstown State showed what he can do if given time. UIC and Green Bay have new coaches and Oakland still has Coach Greg Kampe but they were hit hard by transfers. So coming in this season might be good timing for you guys.
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Post by vugrad1314 on Jun 9, 2020 18:37:31 GMT -6
I know nothing about RMU's upcoming team this year nor am I particularly knowledgeable about the HL rosters next season as I am a fan of a former HL member team, but a very cursory analysis based upon NET and NET alone suggests that RMU would be quite competitive in the HL. RMU's NET (203) would have been good for 3rd in the HL this past season behind Wright State (127) and NKU (Northern Kentucky) (150). RMU's NET would probably have been higher than that playing in the #22 ranked conference as opposed to the #27 ranked NEC. I think this suggests that the Colonials will be very competitive from the jump and can expect a finish somewhere in the top half maybe in the top 3. Here's a little primer based on what I hope is accurate information. Other fans can feel free to correct this if they wish. If you join the HL you will be the 12th member, as Fort Wayne, who was in the Summit League last season, is moving to the HL for the upcoming year. The league is led by two bellcows in Wright State and NKU, with Oakland and Green Bay usually presenting strong teams most years. The league also has some historically strong programs like Milwaukee Detroit and Cleveland State that have fallen on hard times recently but appear to be back on the rise somewhat as well as rising teams in UIC (Illinois-Chicago) and Youngstown State who I suspect will be RMU's chief rival ala Wright State-NKU or Green Bay-Milwaukee. The two Indiana schools (IUPUI and Fort Wayne) are relative newcomers to the conference, one of whom IUPUI is still struggling to find its footing and the other (Fort Wayne) is entirely unproven in HL competition as I mentioned above. Overall, it's a decent league that could be pretty good when the top programs are all firing on all cylinders and should provide a nice step up and a good stable home for RMU basketball as it grows and enhances its brand in this new era. Playing in large markets such as those the HL provides should help with that, as the conference still has some name cache among fans from the deep tournament runs of yesteryear by the likes of Butler Milwaukee and Cleveland State. Hopefully RMU can add to that and I'm confident they would be a strong member if they joined and that the move would benefit both RMU and the HL tremendously. Expansion probably isn't done for the HL either even following RMU as they appear to be looking at Bellarmine USI (Southern Indiana) SIU-Edwardsville Morehead State and Lipscomb (though those last three might be based on dated information). Denver and Omaha were past rumored targets but I doubt that's the case anymore. Since Bellarmine is a potential future target (they want to see how they acclimate to D1 hoops in the Atlantic Sun first like they did with NKU and if they perform well they'll get a call up quickly), and they sponsor LAX, which a couple of HL schools (Detroit and Cleveland State I think) also sponsor, I wouldn't be so quick to abandon the notion of LAX becoming a HL sport in the near future. You'd only need 3 more members with RMU in the fold and I think a couple of schools have at least kicked around the idea of adding it. Again, fans, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think most of this is pretty accurate. Whatever RMU decides I'm sure it will be the right move for them and I wish the program and the league well.
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Post by vugrad1314 on Jun 9, 2020 18:42:23 GMT -6
Robert Morris fan here, lots of smoke to this fire. I would be very happy with a move to HL. In my opinion better option than the MAAC. Hopefully it happens. Would love to see some HL schools add lax, though understand current conditions likely exclude that for years. Interested in your thoughts, if RMU is in HL this year, where do you think they would finish? Welcome letsgoromo. It's tough to say where they would finish. Last season it would have been behind UIC (Wright State, NKU, Green Bay, Youngstown State, UIC). I like Coach Toole and the program he's put together. A move to the HL, although we've fallen off a bit, will be much better than a move to the MAAC. Your travel would actually be less. The exposure for RMU would be better. The HL has games on ESPN and ESPN2 during the season which helps immensely. I think Coach Toole would do quite well recruiting in big city markets like Chicago, Cleveland, Detroit, Cincinnati and Indianapolis which joining the HL would bring. The one concern is that RMU has only 3 men's sports that would play Horizon League-sponsored sports. I understand men's Hoops is the golden egg and the powers that be are hoping for a possible favorable RMU decision. If the Colonials came in for '20-'21, they could finish top 5-6. Wright State & NKU will still be at the top. Cleveland State should be a threat next season and Coach Calhoun at Youngstown State showed what he can do if given time. UIC and Green Bay have new coaches and Oakland still has Coach Greg Kampe but they were hit hard by transfers. So coming in this season might be good timing for you guys. Good summation but RMU's NET was actually 14 spots ahead of UIC's. UIC finished at 217 RMU finished at 203. They would have finished third in NET in the HL behind only Wright State and NKU. Green Bay (221) and Youngstown State (232) would also have been behind them. I think you might be mistakenly looking at RPI. Use this site It will help you. warrennolan.com/basketball/2020/conference/Horizon-League
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Post by freewind on Jun 10, 2020 6:27:56 GMT -6
I'd peg Robert Morris at 6th in our conference, with Ohio teams being better, N, Kentucky being solid, and probably one of (Oakland, Fort Wayne, Green Bay) at least being better out of that clump. Last year, RMU lost to UIC, Clev St, and YSU all by pretty large margins (on the road). With that said, i think that will be one of the biggest helpers coming into the Horizon League is helping out with Non Conference Scheduling, i think you'll be able to get more Home/Home offers from other mid majors if you can be competitive in the Horizon League. Should get some offers from MAC & Summit teams, though nothing grand, it will probably help sell more season tickets.
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Post by vugrad1314 on Jun 10, 2020 7:24:36 GMT -6
That's fair. I didn't factor in head to head this past year. Home court matters and I have to think those games would be closer in Moon Township but I wouldn't be surprised if there are some growing pains and a learning curve for RMU in the Horizon. I have no doubt they will rise to the occasion in short order and prove to be a terrific addition but it might take a year or two or so. The MVC is another conference that plays a fair number of Home and homes with HL schools as well. In addition you'll also get to be a part of a challenge with the SL going forward which should help your scheduling especially if you're competitive. Here's an interesting question: how do you treat Robert Morris for the HL-SL challenge? Are their metrics still going to count the same as though they were always an HL member despite the fact that they compiled their numbers against NEC competition? Wonder who will be sitting out since the HL has more teams than the SL as well.
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Post by letsgoromo on Jun 10, 2020 9:29:43 GMT -6
Thanks for all the responses. I really hope it's happens but who knows. RMU has their best nucleus coming back in a long time. No big players transfered out after season.
Moon Twp is a great place to visit if any of you guys travel. Very close and easy to fly to, short drive to downtown Pittsburgh. Lots of good restaurants and nice hotels in immediate area. Pirmanti Brothers is right down street from campus.
Thanks again! Fingers crossed.
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Post by vugrad1314 on Jun 11, 2020 12:15:31 GMT -6
Oh wow... Congratulations to everyone involved here! Great move for both sides! The HL is back on its way up!
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Post by vugrad1314 on Jun 11, 2020 13:15:25 GMT -6
Sounds like it really is happening. This tweet says YSU's AD has confirmed the news.
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Post by freewind on Jun 11, 2020 15:00:10 GMT -6
Welcome officially to the group letsgoromo!
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Post by freewind on Jun 11, 2020 15:07:35 GMT -6
Good luck coming up with divisions if that happens. East/West would be more logical i think geographical but it probably means existing travel partners/rivals might get divided:
East Robert Morris Clev St YSU WSU NKU Oakland Detroit
West GB UIC Milwaukee IUPUI PFW
Not sure who they would slide from East to West to even it up. One of the Michigan teams would probably be most logical but i'd hate for them to be split unless they get agreed 2 games every year.
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Post by letsgoromo on Jun 11, 2020 15:29:48 GMT -6
So excited to see it! Though not certain about anything until it's OFFICIALLY official!
I'm sure some fans won't like RMU coming, but they have shown a real commitment to athletics with new arena.
I think, though obviously not familiar with all teams, RMU will be top half at worst as long as no big transfers or a lot of injuries. Maybe optimistic, but have been through some many years of the best players transferring (Clemson, Georgetown, Nebraska).
Hope it happens!
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Post by vugrad1314 on Jun 11, 2020 15:33:30 GMT -6
I would put Cleveland State or one of Wright State or NKU in the west so that you have the same numbers in each division. That team can shift back east once Bellarmine and USI are added in the future. Adding a Wright State\NKU type program to the west would also balance the competition a little bit. The East looks really difficult and competitive and the west looks pretty soft to be honest. I guess Oakland could work for that, but I don't like the idea of splitting the Detroit schools. Cleveland State makes the most sense going west especially if you don't want to break up Wright State\NKU.
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