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Post by gbphoenix1 on Feb 24, 2019 15:37:19 GMT -6
In fairness help was written in quotation marks. I think Fort Wayne wouldn't necessarily hurt the league even if on day one they aren't moving the needle forward.
Perhaps being part of a better regional fit they could garner more interest and deploy their resources in a better way with less travel expenses. Over time that might be enough to help the league.
As a fan of GB it should take away one of our 2 non D1 games at home. Though it would give GB another team in Indiana they probably won't beat. Good grief, that is a topic for another thread.
I get why people might want to hold steady at 10 if this is the best the league can do. At this point I think the league could do worse if they are set on expansion.
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Post by HLFanaticus on Feb 24, 2019 20:58:18 GMT -6
In fairness help was written in quotation marks. I think Fort Wayne wouldn't necessarily hurt the league even if on day one they aren't moving the needle forward. Perhaps being part of a better regional fit they could garner more interest and deploy their resources in a better way with less travel expenses. Over time that might be enough to help the league. As a fan of GB it should take away one of our 2 non D1 games at home. Though it would give GB another team in Indiana they probably won't beat. Good grief, that is a topic for another thread. I get why people might want to hold steady at 10 if this is the best the league can do. At this point I think the league could do worse if they are set on expansion. If we cannot add a team that realistically does something to improve the conference I don't see the purpose of adding an 11th team. All we are doing is watering down the conference even more. Makes it harder to negotiate our next TV contract with ESPN when you add one more team no one wants to see. It divides up everyone's NCAA tournament shares into smaller pieces. And the worst part would be adding an odd number of teams to the conference. The one nice thing about the HL now is we are a compact league with pretty good natural travel partners. Adding an 11th team doesn't make sense. Hell if we are dead set on expanding it makes more sense to go all in and add Southern Indiana and IPFW. The HL would be making the statement that we are giving up on ever being a top mid major again but at least we would have even number teams and the location would make sense geographically. Thanks gbphoenix1 for at least noticing the quotations. Big DWSU, I've seen your posts regarding the HL and understand how you feel about the expansion situation and especially how you feel about the way LeCrone has handled it. Since expansion is still on the agenda of the HL, the League might as well do something, and not just for the sake of just doing something. As gbphoenix1 mentioned, Fort Wayne gives the conference one more D1 game. With 11 teams the HL can move to 20 games as the P6 will soon do. The non-D1 games did nothing for league ratings and lower rated non-con D1 games usually lowered rpi and now NET ratings. Adding a PFW at this point wouldn't hurt that. As far as PFW taking some of the NCAA shares, the Horizon could do as the high-majors do and negotiate a pro-rated, lesser amount until the invited team is in the league for a period of time. I also disagree with your comment of the Horizon making a statement of giving up ever being a top mid-major again. It will take time and the Horizon AD's making better coaching hires and those coaches instituting winning cultures. I know it's easier said than done but it can be done. |
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Post by tommyboy on Feb 25, 2019 8:17:19 GMT -6
Why do you say adding Fort Wayne only adds 1 D1 game? Wouldn't it be 2?
Why would Fort Wayne want to switch if they weren't given a full share? They think that much of the HL when they said they weren't ready before.
( If we were a high-major, sorry...wake me when that happens and I'll consider if a new team deserves second-class status ).
Can anyone come up with a 12th name without adding a D2 school?
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Post by tommyboy on Feb 25, 2019 8:32:28 GMT -6
Are there any leagues with 12 members that don't do divisions? And, wouldn't that decrease the number of league games or, do you have a way to come up with 18 or 20 games?
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Post by gbphoenix1 on Feb 25, 2019 9:02:33 GMT -6
I agree with Fanatic while also agreeing with Big D. I don’t think the league has to expand. Sitting tight at 10 and growing the current members has a ton of merit. I also don’t think the league is planning to do that. In that case they should make the most logical additions they can and get those new members working towards adding to the league profile. In that case Fort Wayne is the current best of the attainable options. I do think if the league insists on expanding it has to go to 12 members. That just works better.
I think the tournament shares are currently divided 12 ways. Adding two members divides that 14 ways. That means each share takes about a 20k/per share reduction. To me that isn’t enough money to haggle over in this decision making process.
Adding PFW would add two games but only one home game. That home game for most teams is currently occupied by a non D1 team or very low level D1 team for most of the league. So it would improve the quality of almost every league members home schedule by one game. Depending on how each team schedules they are losing a road game though. That game is probably played against a team that is the same or better than PFW.
I don’t get the sense that league has vetted all of the options properly. Programs like Liberty probably could have been had and would have been additive. The league can’t dip into the UMKC, SIUE, EIU, WIU and Chi State pool. They have to be looking in the RMU, Liberty, Lipscomb type pool. Short of those not being available and if they need to go to 12 then a Southern Indiana looks way more attractive than some of the remaining attainable D1 programs in the geographic footprint.
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Post by tommyboy on Feb 25, 2019 9:40:28 GMT -6
Okay, I can see the logic in adding a team to get rid of 1 of the 2 home games against non-D1. Of course, I could do it by saying you can't schedule games against non-D1.
I used to be pretty loyal to the HL but, can't think of any reason not to jump ship if there were another option for looking to improve the program.
You'd be amazed at some of the teams involved in previous conversations. Those could have really helped the conference but, we didn't and it is what it is.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 25, 2019 10:14:20 GMT -6
Why would Fort Wayne want to switch if they weren't given a full share? They think that much of the HL when they said they weren't ready before. How about the obvious: being in the Summit where travel costs are killing them? It's not them thinking so much of the HL as much as them just being sick and tired of going to the Dakotas and Nebraska. That league seems to be moving more westward, making Fort Wayne the easternmost program. Travel costs as well as time spent away from classes for their student athletes is a concern. The IUPUI coach said that was a huge issue when he did a radio interview about the Jags joining the HL. In that regard the HL would have Fort Wayne over a barrel. They've been ready for some time, the Horizon just cooled on them because LeCrone had a hard-on for IUPUI to replace Valpo. The Dons should be back in play. Can anyone come up with a 12th name without adding a D2 school? Robert Morris Morehead State Lipscomb Murray State (they'll get tired of being dissed by The Valley) SIU Edwardsville All have baseball except RMU. |
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Post by gbphoenix1 on Feb 25, 2019 16:34:34 GMT -6
Saying you can't schedule non D1 teams is hard to execute. Unless you are playing home and home any road team is going to want a paycheck. I was very surprised at what some lower tier OVC and ASun teams receive from the Horizon League. I know that GB plays non D1 games because it is over a 50k difference in cost with little to no impact on ticket revenue. I would guess most of the league would question where that money is going to come from if the rule is put in place. A conference challenge would go along way towards helping this issue as well.
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Post by gbphoenix1 on Feb 26, 2019 15:54:02 GMT -6
I understood that Murray State was not interested. I understood that Robert Morris was vetted and nothing happened. I am surprised to read that Morehead State and Lipscomb said they were not interested. Not because they should be interested but because I wasn't aware that the Horizon League had been in contact. I know this is an entirely different can of worms and I will admit that I haven't worked through the numbers. However, the OVC and ASun for example are rated right around the same as the Horizon League. Yet I would submit that the rankings for the OVC are boosted by the top 4 teams and the 8 teams net ranked 260 or worse are anchors. In the ASun they have 2 of 9 members in the top 65 and have 5 of 9 members ranked 233 or worse. The Horizon League doesn't have any top net rated teams with NKU leading at 126. However, the bottom three are net rated from 260 to 298. The overall depth of the Horizon is better. At some level prospective members should understand that not having as many bottom dwellers in their league might help their profile. That or some of these schools should pull a Big East move and strong arm the buyout of a league with a realignment that brings solid mid majors together while still having an autobid. Imagine Belmont/Lipscomb, Murray State/Austin Peay, NKU/WSU, Oakland/UIC, Green Bay/UWM, and Jacksonville State/Liberty forming a 12 team rebranded Horizon League (or leave JSU/LU out if you don't like the travel). Sure it is not realistic but like winning the lottery it is fun to dream  . |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 26, 2019 17:43:37 GMT -6
I'm with you gbphoenix1, I hadn't heard about Morehead and Lipscomb either. I do like your "strong arm" League though except for JSU and Liberty. Being in Tennessee and Kentucky is enough. Florida and Virginia are non-starters for me.
Sorry. JSU is in Alabama. Jacksonville is in Florida.
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Post by nodak on Mar 11, 2019 17:56:40 GMT -6
Think the Horizon will offer Fort Wayne and Robert Morris soon. The Horizon will need backups to save baseball as a sport, which Fort Wayne has. They also have men’s soccer. Robert Morris will park football in the MVC. Think the MVC will add Murray St and UALR soon. The MVC will need more football schools and Murray provides that as well as an exceptional mbb program for its size. Their traveling fan base made the OVC tournament have more fans than the MVC one. The Summit will lose Fort Wayne and Western Illinois shortly, as spouted by their commissioner. Western Illinois will be OVC bound to replace Murray maybe the following year and Augustana SD will replace it. ORU will go to the WAC. kwsn.com/news/articles/2019/mar/08/summit-league-commissioner-has-talked-with-augustana-but-no-formal-action-yet/IMHO, the six schools along I-29 will be excellent travel partners for the Montanas, Idaho, EWU and Weber St to move over. So the Summit will add football and the MVC will find an immense need to get more fb schools or affiliate. |
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Post by nodak on Mar 11, 2019 21:18:12 GMT -6
UALR had a study that said finances was not possible for FBS in the SunBelt. Without that study, a move would be forever second guessed by Little Rockians. UALR just announced last year that they were adding wrestling from a gift be a donor. That indicates the UALR admin never had football in mind, as wrestling makes the T IX situation even harder.
The MVC is adding two states at the southern edge to its footprint. Murray St will fill up Arch Madness instead of Wichita St and Creighton. Missouri St’s President is in charge of the selection committee and he has stated that a school in close proximity to Springfield is a priority. UALR will be the Wichita St replacement, as it doesn’t have fb and doesn’t intend and can’t afford to add it. The private schools get leery about the conference football adding to many teams and splitting off from the privates.
With football, the Summit no longer needs numbers for baseball and men’s soccer. Those were becoming impossible to replace.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 13, 2019 16:08:39 GMT -6
Think the Horizon will offer Fort Wayne and Robert Morris soon. The Horizon will need backups to save baseball as a sport, which Fort Wayne has. They also have men’s soccer. Robert Morris will park football in the MVC. Think the MVC will add Murray St and UALR soon. The MVC will need more football schools and Murray provides that as well as an exceptional mbb program for its size. Their traveling fan base made the OVC tournament have more fans than the MVC one. The Summit will lose Fort Wayne and Western Illinois shortly, as spouted by their commissioner. Western Illinois will be OVC bound to replace Murray maybe the following year and Augustana SD will replace it. ORU will go to the WAC. kwsn.com/news/articles/2019/mar/08/summit-league-commissioner-has-talked-with-augustana-but-no-formal-action-yet/IMHO, the six schools along I-29 will be excellent travel partners for the Montanas, Idaho, EWU and Weber St to move over. So the Summit will add football and the MVC will find an immense need to get more fb schools or affiliate. First off, welcome to this board nodak. Now, have you been hanging around DavidSt too much? You've stated the above with so much confidence with no real proof. We all know that expansion talk is mostly speculative and opinionated, but sometimes a little proof of our talks is welcomed. |
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Post by nodak on Mar 13, 2019 22:42:51 GMT -6
Think the Horizon will offer Fort Wayne and Robert Morris soon. The Horizon will need backups to save baseball as a sport, which Fort Wayne has. They also have men’s soccer. Robert Morris will park football in the MVC. Think the MVC will add Murray St and UALR soon. The MVC will need more football schools and Murray provides that as well as an exceptional mbb program for its size. Their traveling fan base made the OVC tournament have more fans than the MVC one. The Summit will lose Fort Wayne and Western Illinois shortly, as spouted by their commissioner. Western Illinois will be OVC bound to replace Murray maybe the following year and Augustana SD will replace it. ORU will go to the WAC. kwsn.com/news/articles/2019/mar/08/summit-league-commissioner-has-talked-with-augustana-but-no-formal-action-yet/IMHO, the six schools along I-29 will be excellent travel partners for the Montanas, Idaho, EWU and Weber St to move over. So the Summit will add football and the MVC will find an immense need to get more fb schools or affiliate. First off, welcome to this board nodak. Now, have you been hanging around DavidSt too much? You've stated the above with so much confidence with no real proof. We all know that expansion talk is mostly speculative and opinionated, but sometimes a little proof of our talks is welcomed. There is proof of Augustana talking with the Summit above. For the Summit commish to say that Fort Wayne and W Illinois are looking at leaving is revelvant to this board. Commissioners normally try to curb hard feelings. If anyone with half a brain is the Fort Wayne President, they would want into the Horizon now. The realignment board doesn’t agree that many upper FCS teams will move to FBS before the next CFP in 2025. I said my opinion and they don’t agree mostly. DavidSt believes every D2 wants DI, which Inreject. Selective D2 with community support and major endowment will, as happened with UCSD, Dixie St, and soon to be USI. |
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Post by kevinudm on Mar 15, 2019 13:01:30 GMT -6
The Summit League needs to get back up to 10 members so it would make sense for them to sponsor Augustana's move up from D2, provided that Augustana can get agreement with the Pioneer League for football. (But does the Pioneer League need an 11th team?) Alternatively, UMKC could return to the Summit; it would make sense for everyone, if they can get past any bad blood from UMKC's departure. The Summit might be smart to pursue both schools as Denver or IPFW would likely leave if given a good opportunity. ORU would be crazy to leave the Summit for the WAC, and they quickly learned that their prior move to the Southland was a mistake.
Robert Morris is not getting an offer to the HL and wouldn't come if it were offered. They're a charter member of the NEC and are will situated there. They field men's teams in just six sports; and three of the sports aren't part of the HL (football, hockey, lacrosse).
Only three D1 schools would be likely to accept an HL offer today: IPFW, NJIT or Chicago St.
IPFW has reasonably good basketball and they have a baseball team. But they are relatively small, they're in an unappealing market, and they have a small athletics budget. Most of their non-basketball teams are awful. They HL could have added IPFW instead of IUPUI or in addition to IUPUI (going to 11) but wisely declined.
NJIT has reasonably good basketball as well as baseball and swimming and diving. They ended up the Atlantic Sun Conference as an act of desperation on both sides. But I don't see the HL adding a school in Newark unless it is paired with another Eastern school, and none comes to mind. NJIT is likely to eventually find a home in some suitable conference in the northeast.
Chicago St. would be a good geographic fit for the HL and would like a new home, as they can scarce afford the travel required to be in the WAC. But they also cannot afford salaries for coaches or teachers, academic facilities, etc. No conference other than the WAC would have them, and it's unclear if they'll last as a D1 competitor or even survive as a university.
So for the time being any HL moves are likely to be reactive, if needed. Val Ackerman says that the Big East wants to add an 11th school. If they take Saint Louis from the A10, there's unlikely to be any downstream impact to the HL. IMHO the Big East would be smarter to take Loyola. That's a real longshot, but if it happened the MVC might poach UIC to stay in Chicago, and then the HL would take IPFW.
MVC is on record that they're happy with their current 10 members, so they seem unlikely to add Murray State plus one (as has been often speculated). But if they did go that route, Belmont, Lipscomb and NKU would all be reasonable partners. If NKU left, then the HL would take IPFW.
The HL has never sponsored a D2 move up and is unlikely to start no for Southern Indiana or anyone else. I suspect that the HL membership is likely to remain stable for a few years.
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