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Post by ougrizz05 on Aug 27, 2019 18:26:07 GMT -6
I don't know that the league will expand. 11 teams gives you 20 conference games--that's a good number. You don't have to have travel partners. As Big D always says, just adding another team doesn't do much for the conference. If they are looking, here are pretty much all the possibilities absent a major geographic reach: - Robert Morris (discussed ad nauseum; would have to do something with football) - Bellarmine (just entering D1) - Southern Indiana (still hasn't indicated an intent to move up) - Western Illinois (though in Illinois, stretches the footprint more than Bob Morris, Niagara, or Canisius, and as much as Lipscomb; small market, no history) - Eastern Illinois (would have to re-home football) - Chicago State ('nuff said) - Morehead State - Lipscomb - Niagara and Canisius (not likely) - Omaha (too far) Schools that wouldn't be interested: MAC schools MVC schools Conference USA schools Belmont Other OVC schools Duquesne Are any of those that might conceivably be interested really worth the candle? How much potential do you think Bellarmine has? Lipscomb? Honestly Lipscomb is too far. It is in a completely different region of the country. I love Omaha and think they would have been great, but geography does not work. Western IL, just no. They dont offer anything, are not in a major metro area, have no tradition, need I say more?
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Post by vugrad1314 on Aug 28, 2019 2:42:26 GMT -6
Well both Bellarmine and USI have won national championships recently at D2 in multiple sports and are in big regional markets which the HL would look for. Their respective locations (Louisville and Evansville) would even further solidify Indianapolis as the HL's hub city and bring the geographic balance to the western side that the HL might want since the league really does seem to be shifting east which would stand to alienate the Wisconsin schools and UIC somewhat I bet. As for fan bases, I don't know how strong they are but having a bunch of local schools to play in a conference with some fairly recent name cache (I mean this was a really good conference 10-15 years ago) could help these programs reach their potential.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 28, 2019 12:04:45 GMT -6
I don't know that the league will expand. 11 teams gives you 20 conference games--that's a good number. You don't have to have travel partners. As Big D always says, just adding another team doesn't do much for the conference. I'm with you on that. I too don't have a feeling that the League will expand. I think the 11/20 situation will work just fine. The B1G had 11 teams for a while and did just fine, although they didn't go the 20 conference games route. And like Fanaticus alluded to, what Conference is the HL likely going to to try and influence a team to leave from? I don't see it. If they are looking, here are pretty much all the possibilities absent a major geographic reach: - Robert Morris (discussed ad nauseum; would have to do something with football) - Bellarmine (just entering D1) - Southern Indiana (still hasn't indicated an intent to move up) - Western Illinois (though in Illinois, stretches the footprint more than Bob Morris, Niagara, or Canisius, and as much as Lipscomb; small market, no history) - Eastern Illinois (would have to re-home football) - Chicago State ('nuff said) - Morehead State - Lipscomb - Niagara and Canisius (not likely) - Omaha (too far) I will also include Bellarmine & USI as being talked about ad nauseum as of late alongside Bobby Mo. After the first 3, you could've stopped the list. Once upon a time I mentioned Morehead State because NKU was in the league and only 2 hours separates them. Although the school is in Kentucky with NKU, that would begin a shift southward. Are any of those that might conceivably be interested really worth the candle? How much potential do you think Bellarmine has? Lipscomb? Of those you mentioned, USI and Bellarmine might be worth the candle. I actually think they both have excellent potential. My concern is that unlike with NKU, once Bellarmine gets going in the ASun, which is a better league since NKU was in it, the Knights might not be so eager to leave. We still don't know the Division I aspirations (Jon LeCrone's favorite "HL expansion press conference word") or lack thereof of USI.
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Post by gbphoenix1 on Aug 28, 2019 18:23:00 GMT -6
Buy games, increased ticket sales, increased donations, media rights, NCAA tournament share money or higher student fees could all bridge the gap.
Bellarmine and RMU have about the same number of students and a similar cost after aid (Bellarmine is more expensive before aid) yet RMU doesn't have a budget issue for athletics.
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Post by gbphoenix1 on Aug 28, 2019 21:36:59 GMT -6
I don't know how they increase their spending to be competitive at the D1 level. Ummm....just countering your comment with ways that revenue could be raised. I'm still not advocating for Bellarmine.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2019 22:51:28 GMT -6
When did any HL school not named Butler EVER consistently get 3 and 4 star recruits? It never happened even when we were a consistent top 10-12 conference and Butler didn't start landing those type of recruits until right before they left the conference. Fanaticus never said this League was getting or ever did consistently get 3 & 4-star recruits, but asking why doesn't the conference seem capable of doing so. You would think being in nice sized markets with good academics that our schools would get their fair share. That's what I got from the post. By the way, from my perspective, during Jimmy Collins', Bruce Pearl's and Perry Watson's tenures at UIC, Milwaukee and Detroit Mercy respectively, I thought they recruited a number of 3-star recruits. Maybe not the 4-stars, but definitely some 3-stars. Though not a good coach, Steve McClain has done a decent job of bringing in 3-stars during his 4 years at UIC. The bottom line still remains that in order to be attractive to any program, the HL needs to become "self rehabilitative".
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Post by freewind on Jan 25, 2021 13:59:52 GMT -6
Rumors has the ASUN picking up Eastern Kentucky & Jacksonville State from the Ohio Valley. That will take the Ohio Valley from 12 teams to 10. I wonder if that will have any impact on others looking to leave the conference.
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Post by freewind on Jan 25, 2021 15:05:52 GMT -6
With the ASUN's goal to become a 20 team conference, they will probably have to take most of the football schools in the Ohio Valley Conference, which leaves Belmont, Morehead State (pioneer football), and SIU Edwardsville on the outside looking in. Horizon League should be at the very least throw out another reachout to Murray State & Belmont again. Heck, Morehead state's NET is better than the majority of the Horizon League this year. But we all know what will happen. We'll be welcoming SIUE and Chicago St to the league this summer.
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Post by commissioner on Jan 31, 2021 11:47:21 GMT -6
With the ASUN's goal to become a 20 team conference, they will probably have to take most of the football schools in the Ohio Valley Conference, which leaves Belmont, Morehead State (pioneer football), and SIU Edwardsville on the outside looking in. Horizon League should be at the very least throw out another reachout to Murray State & Belmont again. Heck, Morehead state's NET is better than the majority of the Horizon League this year. But we all know what will happen. We'll be welcoming SIUE and Chicago St to the league this summer. Love to get Murray State and Belmont, but I'm guessing won't happen. Should we go beyond 12 teams, look to Bellarmine. They're in their first year of D-1, and are 9-5 overall, 6-2 and tied for first in the Atlantic Sun. They had a big rivalry with Northern Kentucky when they were both D-2. Bellarmine is located in Louisville, and the Horizon is a better geographic for them than the sprawling A-Sun. They play in Freedom Hall, which is in old building off campus, and too big for the Horizon (seats over 18K), but it's a decent facility--Louisville played all its home games there for many years, and it's hosted NCAA regional several times. Bellarmine plays baseball, which the league wants, and adding them would give the Horizon 4 schools playing lacrosse (the others are Cleveland State, Detroit, and Robt. Morris), so it may be possible to get the Horizon into that growing sport, perhaps adding a couple of members just for that sport (for example, Air Force, which is a national power, currently plays lacrosse in the Southern Conference, as there are virtually no lacrosse schools west of the Mississippi; similarly, Utah plays as an independent; another possibility would be Hobart, in upstate NY, which is a solid D-1 program in lacrosse but D-3 in everything else; there are also some D-2 lacrosse schools that might be interested in moving up, including Davenport, in Grand Rapids; Quincy in Illinois; and U of Indianapolis). Right now I think Bellarmine is the most likely expansion candidate.
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Post by gbphoenix1 on Feb 1, 2021 12:20:15 GMT -6
I don't see the Horizon League expanding at this point. They don't really need to expand unless something so good comes along that they have to say yes or another school leaves and they need to backfill the opening.
Of the sports the league sponsors, several like swimming, cross country, track & field, golf and tennis mostly operate with invitationals and then a conference championship. There isn't a round robin schedule to worry about. These programs tend to stay local and operate with little expense.
For the sports with league schedules like baseball, basketball, soccer, softball and volleyball only baseball is light on numbers at 7 programs. Everything else has 10 or more so scheduling is a breeze and divisional play is possible if desired.
I think Bellarmine is a fine addition to D1 and worthy school to consider in the future if needed but I don't see what Bellarmine does for the league on day one besides add baseball.
As for Murray State and Belmont I know the chatter from fans is about them going to the MVC. I see why fans think that. However, I think both of those programs are better suited to stay where they are or join the Horizon. They are the kind of programs that do make sense for the HL to go to 14 teams.
My issue with Belmont is that while they have a great history, a nice campus, a good hoops home and a great budget. One thing they don't have is fans. They are an after thought in Nashville. They get an occasional big crowd but for the most part for everything good they have nobody seems to really care. I share this as an issue because their formula in the OVC is outspend the rest of the league. They get the pick of the litter for recruits at their level. Players go around the OVC and see how much better they have it and everyone is happy. In the MVC their budget would be good but their facility and fan interest would barely compare. Things would get a lot harder for them in the MVC IMO.
My issue for Murrary State is while they have a great history, strong fan interest and a nice facility but they don't spend at an MVC level. I think money is an easier problem to fix than fan interest but in general they wouldn't be a big dog anymore. There are just as many programs in the MVC with fans, history and facilities but more money to spend on a better experience and chance of winning. I think things would get a lot harder for them in the MVC as well.
I look at Valpo as an example. They have fans, a local beat writer and a solid budget in the HL. Their recruits looked at Valpo by comparison to the rest of the HL and could see they have it good. Now look at them compared to the rest of the MVC. They play in the worst facility, have a smaller budget than most of the league and are in one of the bottom locations (Terre Haute, Cedar Falls and Carbondale are comparable). The HL was a great spot for them to mask their deficiencies. It is a lot harder for them in the MVC.
I know I am being picky here and likely not thinking like any other fan or school administrator would. However, if the OVC replaces the WAC as the conference that is dying a slow death the best OVC teams could come into the HL and not miss a beat way easier than in the MVC. Is the MVC a risk they want to take? There are levels here and you can't just do what you have always done. Ask Evansville and maybe in a few more years ask Valpo too if it was worth the risk...
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Post by topstraight on Feb 8, 2021 14:23:14 GMT -6
IMO Bellarmine might have shifted focus south. EKU in the same conference and Lipscomb. They can always get Morehead and NKU in out of conference games. They may come back around to a more northern conference in a few years but only if the ASUN does not work out. ASUN is also hoping to add one or two schools from Tennessee which would help Bellarmine travel by adding divisional play in most sports.
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Post by freewind on Feb 10, 2021 13:14:02 GMT -6
I'm going to guess it's going to be more lucrative for Bellarmine to be in the Horizon League. Since they don't field a football team, i doubt they will get any football money. They're a basketball school in a football conference, which is a terrible situation to be in, so they'll want to get out fast unless they plan on fielding a team in the near future. Traveling from Kentucky to Florida is 200 miles farther than to Green Bay.
If OVC doesn't get replacements soon, (they're going to probably lose 1 maybe 2 more schools still this year) they're going to be a shaky conference. If I was Horizon, i'd throw Bel an early invite along with Morehead St and try to pressure Belmont/Murray to joining as well. I know diluting an auto bid conference to 16 teams isn't ideal if you want to watch your team dance, but i'd be willing to give up seeing my team dance less if the extra money/exposure/better basketball conference increased my teams chance to do better when it did make the tournament.
Would love to see a Horizon tournament where we could get games towards the end between Quad I/II teams playing each other really boosting the winners resume.
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Post by freewind on Feb 23, 2021 16:00:40 GMT -6
Bellarmine would have the 2nd highest NET if it were in the Horizon League. Though I think most Horizon League teams would look a lot better beating up the competition in the ASUN, it's still a pretty awesome feat. I'd be in favor bringing them over sooner than later, I'm afraid once the ASUN starts ramping up getting closer to the 20 team super league they want for football, they might also start racing exit fees.
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