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Post by commissioner on May 10, 2017 6:50:08 GMT -6
I should add one other possibility--stand pat.
If none of the additions helps our basketball profile, why expand? The fear is if Milwaukee or someone were to leave, the conference would be in deep doo-doo, but really? Won't IPFW and IUPUI still be there? If Belmont or Murray State won't come--and they won't--and New Mexico State is too far away for everyone, maybe expansion isn't so cool. Get the league ranking back up first, then we'll be more attractive to a school like Belmont or Murray State. We'll also see what more what some of the other schools can do. Can IPFW straighten out its finances? Can IUPUI continue its upward trend?
So that's one final option.
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Post by Deleted on May 10, 2017 9:19:29 GMT -6
2 things: I think the Horizon will be much better than a 17 or 18 ranking this coming season and I believe the League will make a nice splash with who it adds. I'm not so against a New Mexico State, a Robert Morris or even a Morehead State, if they move the needle toward getting the League another bid or two to the Dance. These next couple weeks should be interesting because I think once we get out of the month of May, it'll be too late to join for the upcoming season as Volleyball and Soccer OOC schedules have to be redone.
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Post by oklahomamick on May 10, 2017 11:58:41 GMT -6
UNO most likely prefers the SL over the HL.
Right now its a lateral move and has been for a couple years now. The SL actaully finished better than the HL the last 2 years.
UNO is close to the SL conference tournament and the Dakotas. HL footprint is much further. RMU only has 4 mens sports that the HL offers and no baseball.
Its between IUPUI and IPFW. I know not attractive but most realistic. But on the positive, sticking with KenPom rankings, those two would have finished within the top half of Horizon.
The days of getting an attractive addition are over.
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Post by csudave on May 10, 2017 15:16:29 GMT -6
I should add one other possibility--stand pat. If none of the additions helps our basketball profile, why expand? The fear is if Milwaukee or someone were to leave, the conference would be in deep doo-doo, but really? Won't IPFW and IUPUI still be there? If Belmont or Murray State won't come--and they won't--and New Mexico State is too far away for everyone, maybe expansion isn't so cool. Get the league ranking back up first, then we'll be more attractive to a school like Belmont or Murray State. We'll also see what more what some of the other schools can do. Can IPFW straighten out its finances? Can IUPUI continue its upward trend? So that's one final option. I'm not particularly thrilled with the idea of staying at 9. Scheduling with odd numbers is a pain, and you look like a league that was unprepared and blindsided by the loss of Valpo. If LeCrone's assertion that the league was prepared for potential partners and looking to expand, then he should do just that. Also, there are 2 big actions that the MVC could take to throw a further wrench in the system:1- Expand to 12 in the summer of 2018, 2- Lose Missouri State to a promotion to FBS football (Sun Belt, MAC, CUSA). If either happens, the HL runs the risk of losing Milwaukee and/or another school, potentially throwing gas on the current (manageable) fire. The trick is to stay proactive instead of reactive. When Loyola left, Oakland's addition (as good as it's turned out) was reactive because stability (particularly in baseball) required a move. The NKU addition was much more proactive. That's the direction I'd prefer. Though league quality in recent years is on par, the HL still provides better geography and TV exposure than the Summit for the Indiana schools. Add them and one more (RMU, Lipscomb, SIUe, WIU) to get to 12 and prepare for life post Valpo.
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PantherU.com
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Post by PantherU.com on May 12, 2017 18:34:23 GMT -6
I should add one other possibility--stand pat. If none of the additions helps our basketball profile, why expand? The fear is if Milwaukee or someone were to leave, the conference would be in deep doo-doo, but really? Won't IPFW and IUPUI still be there? If Belmont or Murray State won't come--and they won't--and New Mexico State is too far away for everyone, maybe expansion isn't so cool. Get the league ranking back up first, then we'll be more attractive to a school like Belmont or Murray State. We'll also see what more what some of the other schools can do. Can IPFW straighten out its finances? Can IUPUI continue its upward trend? So that's one final option. I'm not particularly thrilled with the idea of staying at 9. Scheduling with odd numbers is a pain, and you look like a league that was unprepared and blindsided by the loss of Valpo. If LeCrone's assertion that the league was prepared for potential partners and looking to expand, then he should do just that. Also, there are 2 big actions that the MVC could take to throw a further wrench in the system:1- Expand to 12 in the summer of 2018, 2- Lose Missouri State to a promotion to FBS football (Sun Belt, MAC, CUSA). If either happens, the HL runs the risk of losing Milwaukee and/or another school, potentially throwing gas on the current (manageable) fire. The trick is to stay proactive instead of reactive. When Loyola left, Oakland's addition (as good as it's turned out) was reactive because stability (particularly in baseball) required a move. The NKU addition was much more proactive. That's the direction I'd prefer. Though league quality in recent years is on par, the HL still provides better geography and TV exposure than the Summit for the Indiana schools. Add them and one more (RMU, Lipscomb, SIUe, WIU) to get to 12 and prepare for life post Valpo. Is it just me, or are any of you getting this pit in your stomachs that Alphabet Soup Indiana is coming our way?
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Post by Deleted on May 12, 2017 20:43:47 GMT -6
It's certainly not me. Something unforeseen would have to happen for the IUPU's to get an invite!
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Post by gbphoenix1 on May 15, 2017 11:22:45 GMT -6
Fort Wayne is getting re-branded as Purdue University Fort Wayne. I think they will figure out how to stay D1 unless big brother in Lafayette wants to hold them down.
They aren't great at the Olympic sports but men's hoops has really improved and FW makes sense on a lot of levels. I think being in a conference that makes sense financially and for fan interest will really help them. I used to disrespect Oakland when GB would play them and they were transitioning to D1 but now I respect the heck out them. I don't know if FW can ever get to Oakland's level as Oakland really knows how to play the transfer game but certainly I see FW being an immediate solution for many problems (have decent men's hoops, have baseball, close enough to travel with UIC, fits the geography and would welcome the chance to join the HL) so I wouldn't be as negative about them being the 10th member as others are.
Sure I would prefer Belmont, Murray State, Duquesne or Evansville but right now being realistic about a 10th they aren't bad.
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Post by gbphoenix1 on May 15, 2017 11:31:17 GMT -6
I wrote on the GB board that I think the realistic answer to expansion is Fort Wayne, Lipscomb and Morehead State. If Southern Indiana is serious about moving up I would put them in over Morehead State. That would give the HL 12 members that make geographic sense and play the same sports.
I know Belmont, Murray State, Robert Morris, New Mexico State and Grand Canyon look better on paper but over here in the real world I want to build a league that can last, with members that want to last and that fans can understand.
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Post by commissioner on May 15, 2017 20:36:24 GMT -6
I know everyone hates the idea of travel to Las Cruces. And who knows if NM State even still has interest in the HL. But, they've gone to the NCAA Tournament five out of the last six years, and finished last year with a 56 RPI. The Aggies have a Final Four and a Hall of Fame coach (Lou Henson) in their history, a Western Athletic Conference regular season or tournament championship the last six seasons, three honorable mention AP All-Americans in the past three seasons, and a first-round pick (Pascal Siakim) in last year’s NBA Draft. They are the one team that actually would make the Horizon League stronger than it was with Valpo. It shouldn't be dismissed out of hand simply because of travel.
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Post by gbphoenix1 on May 16, 2017 8:02:45 GMT -6
There is little doubt that NMSU is the best basketball program that the HL could invite. There also isn't that big of a travel cost factor when looking at sports that play a round robin format (hoops, volleyball, w soccer, baseball and softball). If you have to send 6 teams a year to Las Cruces it might add 100k to 150k to the budget. That isn't too bad really. The travel cost is a bigger factor for them as they have to constantly send teams all over compared to the opponents having to do it maybe once per year.
The problem with NMSU is the end game. It isn't good for the HL. The headlines probably look something like this: Conference USA raids Horizon Leauge or NMSU shifts football to FCS and moves all sports to Big Sky.
The reality is they are a band aid for the HL. They are a football independent for FBS right now. If you are not Notre Dame or BYU that isn't sustainable. They are going to need a home. They already were kicked out of the Sunbelt because their football wasn't great and it was too much travel for the other teams. So that leaves a few options. They can go down a level to FCS. North Dakota is a Big Sky Football member until 2020 but with their move from the Big Sky to the Summit they are moving football to the MVFC. This creates an opening for NMSU to consolidate all sports into the Big Sky which makes sense for them.
If they decide to stay FBS, another way the dominos can fall is Big 12 or Mountain West Expansion. No NMSU isn't on either list. However, the MWC is thought to be looking at Rice and UTEP for either expansion to 12 full time members or replace any losses to the Big 12. UTEP is a perfect fit in my opinion for the MWC. Anyway, NMSU would be a logical choice to fill the void in CUSA and find a home for football in FBS with all sports in the same conference.
For me this potential rental of NMSU is good for the short run but HL member teams will spend a couple of hundred thousand dollars on travel and in the end the HL will get a black eye and be viewed as fading conference as another player on the men's hoops side moves on to other things. I much prefer to find members that can grow with the HL and not rent a short a term solution.
If the league is going to expand and travel. I prefer GCU, they don't have a football anchor to figure out and short of being called on from a more logical regional hoops conference (WCC) could be in the HL for awhile.
Just thinking out loud here but doesn't it seem like a matter of time until the WAC folds. The WCC kind of likes Grand Canyon. With GCU they could add another player to the top of the hoops pile with BYU, Gonzaga and St. Mary's. The WCC would then need a 12th and Seattle fits the profile. Chicago State isn't going to have sports for long at their current pace. If either Indiana school is invited to the HL, UMKC is a logical replacement for the Summit. I just spelled out what I think will happen to NMSU. That leaves Utah Valley, Bakersfield and Texas Rio Grande Valley. I think the NCAA would at some level step into this conference business and help place the remaining programs somewhere (Utah Valley in the Summit or Big Sky, Bakersfield in the Big West and TRGV in the Southland).
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Post by ougrizz05 on May 16, 2017 8:38:20 GMT -6
In a time where budgets are being slashed across the league, NMSU travel makes no sense to the Horizon. Also one of the best things about the Horizon is compact geography. Of course adding New Mexico State throws that out of the window. I agree that it would be basically renting NMSU for the short term too. And we would likely get dumped at some point. Can you imagine having to travel to WI, IL, MI, etc. from New Mexico in January? Yeah I don't think they would want to do that for long.
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Post by phi13 on May 16, 2017 12:58:30 GMT -6
New Mexico State's 5 tournament appearances in 6 years is partially a product of the mass exodus from the WAC. But once Grand Canyon is eligible, there will be 3 serious challengers (GCU, UVU, CSUB) and I expect things to even out a little.
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Post by commissioner on May 16, 2017 21:01:31 GMT -6
In a time where budgets are being slashed across the league, NMSU travel makes no sense to the Horizon. Also one of the best things about the Horizon is compact geography. Of course adding New Mexico State throws that out of the window. I agree that it would be basically renting NMSU for the short term too. And we would likely get dumped at some point. Can you imagine having to travel to WI, IL, MI, etc. from New Mexico in January? Yeah I don't think they would want to do that for long. New Mexico State might actually lower its travel costs in the Horizon. In the WAC they have to travel already to Chicago and Seattle. It's easy and relatively inexpensive to fly to Detroit, Chicago, Cleveland, and Cincinnati. Not so much for WAC destinations McAllen and Bakersfield. Other than basketball and baseball, Horizon teams don't play double round robin, so for non-revenue sports other than baseball it's just 1 trip every other year to the southwest. I don't really know the finances, but I wouldn't dismiss these schools out of hand on the assumption we can't afford the travel. And if we just rent NMSU and GCU for a couple years, well, we pocket the exit fees and then add others.
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Post by gbphoenix1 on May 17, 2017 8:12:45 GMT -6
The question I have for rentals and program recruiting is a bit of a chicken and the egg question. If NMSU or GCU and to a lesser extent Denver or RMU are brought in and bring the RPI up to make the league more attractive, would that really matter to Murray and Belmont? If the league is bolstered by teams they won't be playing will they jump ship to the HL? They apparently didn't come when Butler was on the way out. I don't see them coming now that Valpo is leaving. Would they really come if NMSU and GCU are looking for new homes?
So does the league need the rentals to improve the ratings of the league and hope teams come anyway or does the league need to improve each member so that perspective members can see the strength of the long term members?
Also, I know it is has been mentioned that some of the expansion teams are willing to help with travel costs. I think that is fleeting. Once they realize beating up on Cleveland State isn't any more beneficial than beating up on Chicago State for example that money will dry up. The expansion moves should make financial sense independent of any stimulus.
One final thought is that the league likely needs a member that is close to UIC. So if expansion does take place I can only see it being two far away members and not three.
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Post by Deleted on May 17, 2017 13:06:20 GMT -6
The question I have for rentals and program recruiting is a bit of a chicken and the egg question. If NMSU or GCU and to a lesser extent Denver or RMU are brought in and bring the RPI up to make the league more attractive, would that really matter to Murray and Belmont? If the league is bolstered by teams they won't be playing will they jump ship to the HL? They apparently didn't come when Butler was on the way out. I don't see them coming now that Valpo is leaving. Would they really come if NMSU and GCU are looking for new homes? So does the league need the rentals to improve the ratings of the league and hope teams come anyway or does the league need to improve each member so that perspective members can see the strength of the long term members? Also, I know it is has been mentioned that some of the expansion teams are willing to help with travel costs. I think that is fleeting. Once they realize beating up on Cleveland State isn't any more beneficial than beating up on Chicago State for example that money will dry up. The expansion moves should make financial sense independent of any stimulus. One final thought is that the league likely needs a member that is close to UIC. So if expansion does take place I can only see it being two far away members and not three. I'd say yes it would matter to Belmont and Murray State if the rentals brought the rpi up. That would also depend on what came along with the increased rpi. The obvious result would be multiple bids, and with that more units for the league. Rumor has it that Belmont and Murray State were all ready to join the HL at the time Butler left. At the time, Butler was the standard bearer of the league and no other teams were getting into the Dance. A sense of perceived instability came over the two teams and they decided against coming in. With NMSU and GCU, hopefully they'll help the league enough along with the improving teams already in the league to move the Horizon League to a ranking between 10-12. That can be sustained enough to hold onto the rentals for a lot longer than the rentals and the HL even bargained for. The rentals are also why I believe Commissioner LeCrone mentioned expanding to 14 at the HL Tourney. If they expand to 14 inviting NMSU, GCU, Robert Morris, Belmont and Murray State, that's a league that now is right behind the A-10. So even when NMSU and GCU find better fitting conferences, the HL will still have 12 members and hopefully not all of the rpi strength went with the rentals! For the record my expansion choices would be Robert Morris, Belmont, Murray State, NMSU and GCU.
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